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I will agree that I wasn't looking entirely at post count when I was agreeing with this (though it was a smaller part of it since members with more krones can sometimes mean more active members that post often), and the end part of Moot's post was very (very) mildly insulting...but please calm down Laurentus.  He doesn't mean any harm in what he says, he's just presenting his side of the matter, as we're all entitled to.  I doubt he completely glossed over the responses, that was just his interpretation of what he'd read.

So I'm.. funny(comparative to my post count)..

YAAAAAAAY

I have a higher karma to post count ratio than you, so I must be funnier/more agreeable. Ha!

My response was made in the heat of the moment, and quite possibly ill-considered, but I meant every word, and still do.

The subtlety of his insult, and his own attempt to deal with disagreement was not lost on me, since before he said we were being silly, we most definitely were not, and I was not abrasive before that. Who's the one who doesn't want to deal with disagreement? Rather than actually raise his own objections and seeking clarification, he decided to put words in our mouths and paint us as "silly" to avoid having to deal with the matter further.

I realise that I am quite possibly making things much worse for myself, but luckily, I don't much care.

EDIT: Also, what does my not being a citizen have to do with anything? Does it automatically mean I should stop caring about the well-being of the forums and community? Why should it? The only reason I am not a citizen anymore is because of the "silly" expectation that I have to hold membership to a site I don't plan to ever use again except for RP purposes.

I'm watching the Krone debate with mounting frustration. Why can't the Krone be used as a social status symbol, like the Karma system? All it would then do is show how much you actually contribute and take part, and still be a nice little addition to our system.

Because we already have a social status symbol...the karma system.

I don't think it's anything to get frustrated about, I think we all want to make a good currency system happen. I feel like we're just missing the one piece of it that'll make everything else fall into place.

Except the Karma system doesn't mean anything. At most it means someone is funny sometimes. It doesn't measure participation in anything.

It means that you had to post something and somebody had to like it, as opposed to krone which would just mean that you posted something...kinda like a post count you could spend. One isn't worth much more or less than the other, so let's please stop being silly about this.

Bold mine. You put down the karma system, something that requires both a post and someone to like or agree with it enough to like, as a meaningless social system while promoting a regional currency which where money would likely be made mostly by posting as something that will apparently mean something. Now that I've 'fucking read' what you've said, would you like to continue on with this apparent disagreement that I don't want to deal with over how much more socially profound a regional currency system will be over a karma system? Or whatever you think this disagreement is about?

I don't have a problem with non-Citizens having an opinion about how the region is ran, what I have a problem with is someone who just can't be bothered to maintain their Citizenship glowering at our Citizen discussions from this topic and expecting us to bring our discussions here to accommodate their not being bothered to maintain a nation. And you know, it wouldn't have killed you to maintain your nation and remain a Citizen at least until we got the changes to the Citizenship requirements hashed out, then you would still be in all the discussions you're complaining about here before letting it lapse when the changes were passed...but I guess letting it lapse, making a grand announcement about it, and picking fights here over other discussions you don't have posting access to because of it makes a more dramatic statement.

I won't accuse you of doing so intentionally (unlike your accusations of me), but I don't think it was in very good faith.

Edit: No, I have more to say. During your entire time here, I have been nothing but kind to you. I have praised you for the good things you've done here, I've recognized you as a pillar of this community, and I've tried to be your friend, but time and time again I get this bullshit, your dramatizing minor issues to ridiculous proportions and your taking the piss out of me over every perceived grievance that you can think of. If I wanted to insult you, it would not be subtle. If I wanted to avoid a disagreement I just wouldn't reply. I'm not even going to pretend to be calm, I am fucking incensed that you would accuse me of intentionally doing either. I've done absolutely nothing to you to warrant being treated like this or being accused of the things you have...like I'm some kind of underhanded tyrant out to put you and anyone who disagrees with me down, and I shouldn't have to stand for it. In the past I've let it go because I didn't want to start drama and because I honestly wanted us to be on good terms, but this is bullshit, Laurentus, and after being in your corner more times than you know I deserve better than this. I know I do.

Laurentus. You are being incredibly unreasonable. Was any insult meant by Wintermoot? I highly doubt it. Did he try to put down your argument? As far as I can tell, no, he only disagreed with it. Please, Laurentus, can we just agree to disagree? Its so easy to misinterpret online statements, so can we just not rush to immediately assume every choice of word, every phrase, every statement is a grand insult and an affront to your good name? Please, if every time someone's choice of words where insulting to me I lost my temper I would have lost my temper with Pengu, I would have lost my temper with Colberius, I would have lost my temper with Moot and I would have lost my temper with you. So please, can we just let this go?

Forgive me if I'm suspicious, but...

Disagreeing and putting words in our mouths without seeking clarification are two very different things.

Again, you use the word "likely" and proceed to operate on your understanding of what I'm saying, instead of opting to find clarification, which could have been a simple: "I'm not sure I understand, could you explain how this differs from an incentivised post-count?"

In my ideal model of a currency, participation and reward based on post count would not be a thing, and instead of that, your actual contribution (starting and maintaining RPs, taking part and winning in games and possible betting pools, as well as various other little things I'm probably blind to at this very moment, could be rewarded, and then spent in some sort of new forum game or RP, or perhaps just kept as a shiny new number with some little meaning, if it's too much of a hassle to do the former. Actual post-count would have a minuscule influence, as it would not be a factor worth getting paid for. The only application of it insofar as currency would be to measure the activity of an RP, minus the lore master's own posts (for reasons I hope are obvious) to determine how much said lore master earns for maintaining such an RP. Your own participation in RPs would simply be capped at, say, 15 credits (or whatever other amount is deemed appropriate) per RP, and you could steadily lose credits if you become inactive in that RP (granted, the inactivity thing would probably be measured by post-count, but your actual post-count would still have no influence over how much you stand to gain from said RP).

This is what we could have built up to if you weren't so impatient in putting the idea down (and if only you restrained yourself to that, but then you went and insulted me), as you've just admitted to not liking me posting discussion about it here. I expect your, and everyone else's, follow-up reactions to be just as visceral (which I admittedly started with my own overly-visceral reaction, but I'm getting tired of this shit, too).

How exactly were the parts in the quotes you've highlighted me glowering? Is the karma system something with some sort of deep sentimental value to you, and you just can't stand to see it's actual value questioned? (Yeah, this putting-words-in-your-mouth thing doesn't feel nice, does it?)

Be incensed all you want, I'm not going to be discouraged or dissuaded by it. You didn't seek clarification, you sought to quash dissent. You're using my not being a citizen as a convenient excuse, as people generally didn't seem to mind having to come all the way up here (my god, that's like one goddamn mousewheel scroll above where the other discussion is taking place, how dare I make people come here to engage in debate!? ) to respond.

And here finally we see the crux of the matter: it seems you find the notion of me not wanting to be a citizen (by maintaining a NS nation) anymore somehow offensive. I'm not sure how/why.

To a lesser degree, you seem to find Pengu's resignation and eventual loss of citizenship objectionable as well, and I find that highly puzzling. Much of these problems seem to have ignited again as soon as I resigned and renounced my citizenship, since I honestly felt things were going well between us, at least, up to that point. (And yeah, nothing you did made me do that, so if this is some sort of manifestation of your guilt being turned into resentment, which I'm not saying it is, then you can let that shit go. I'm not in the habit of lying to soothe people's feelings.)

Mind, tell me exactly where I take the piss out of every conceivable grievance I can think of? Why exactly would I pursue such a vendetta against you?

If anything, ever since I resigned and became an ex-citizen once more, it feels like it's the exact other way around, where you do that very thing with me.

Wow, talk about twisting yourself all around to attack me. So let's start at the beginning...

So basically you're attacking me for making a post based on the the proposals that had been made at the time, because apparently you were promoting a proposal you hadn't even made yet. If I missed where you posted this proposal before this all started, please link me to it and I'll wholeheartedly apologize for missing it, but I'm not going to apologize for not being able to read your mind. People usually post their ideas before they promote them, so how would I know you were talking about an idea you hadn't posted about? Or wonder to even to seek clarification about? But I thought the issue was not 'fucking reading' your posts anyways. I even bolded all the relevant parts in my last post, and there's nothing that would even imply that there was something to ask about.

And yes, I must be using your not being a Citizen as a convenient excuse not to have this very discussion that we're having. That's why I've worked to loosen Citizenship requirements and made a proposal of my own to that effect, that's why I said you could've just kept your nation and worked with us in that area until we'd done away with the requirement, and that's why I replied to your post to begin with, because I'm looking for excuses not to have this discussion and to just put you down, lol. For your information, the 'crux of the problem' isn't that you're no longer interested in having a nation...to be honest, I think most of us aren't really involved in NS anymore. The problem is that everyone else is following the law, at least until we have a chance to address these concerns...even Pengu's nation still exists. But not you...you let it lapse, made a big statement about it, and then started posting your 'frustrations' here as if we're supposed to accommodate your not being bothered to wait until we've tried to get a law through. And for the most part, I have out of respect for the things you have done for the region...but I have not tried to 'quash dissent' or avoid discussion. If anything I've done the opposite of that.

I mean, my god, it's like twenty seconds to revive a nation, how dare I consider it to be self-entitled for someone to expect to be accommodated in another topic because he can't post in Citizen areas anymore because he can't be bothered to follow the law and put in those whole twenty seconds. How dare I! You know, by the way, if I really wanted to stick it to non-Citizens, I would just make it so only Citizens can see those forums...you know, like almost every other region does. It's our openness that even allows you to try to pull this shit...but then that would be quashing you again out of my intense anger at having escaped my web of Citizenship, wouldn't it? Good thing we're not doing that.

So yeah, any more tales of how I'm trying to put you down and quash your dissent of...whatever the hell it is we're even talking about now? I'm sure people are loving these walls of quashed dissent text.

Christ, would you to just stop it already?

Laurentus, if someone misunderstands you the best course of action is NOT to fly into a rage, accuse them of putting words into your mouth, say the whole thing is entirely their fault for not immediately understanding your every word and then condemning them for not going through their every word, every iota to understand your point while at the same point accepting absolutely no blame on your part at all. Doing that is not the actions of a mature adult, its the actions of a petulant child.

Wintermoot, while no offence was meant by you even Pengu admitted that your choice of words was a bit insulting. I've seen no apology. What I have seen are passive aggressive snipes and you denying that Laurentus and Pengu renouncing citizenship bothered you when it clearly did. Should you apologize for the original comment? Up to you, but it would certainly calm things down.

Both of you, stop this petty squabbling now. It doesn't make you look like the decent people you really are but like a bunch of upset children. Please, be adult about this and act like the good people I know you both are.

Based on what had actually been posted at the time, when I read Laurentus's reply to my post mentioning the karma system, I felt like my post was being belittled, and it might have led me to responding with a poor choice of words in reply. I apologize for that.

To clarify, the renouncement of Citizenship doesn't bother me at all...what bothers me is that Laurentus didn't bother waiting for us and the Storting to address his issues about it, which are legitimate. He just let his Citizenship lapse, made an announcement about it, and then at least informally still expected to be treated as a Citizen. Everyone else that wants to take part in Citizen discussions applies for Citizenship, why can't he? At least until the Storting finishes addressing his concerns...would it have killed him to do it one more time?

There's so much more I can say, but North has a point, even if I vehemently disagree with the notion that Wintermoot didn't deliberately insult us.

But I will apologise if my words seemed belittling, though again, I have no goddamn idea how it could have been seen as such, without prior annoyance and suspicion already on my every word.

EDIT: And I will also admit that I do have a tendency to say things in such a forceful and short way as to sound insulting in itself, which I do apologise for, but it's become clear there are a lot of goddamn issues that came into play here.

EDIT 2: Also, you might consider not saying stuff like this if you expect me not to share my mind, because then it gives me completely the wrong impression about your level of acceptance of my involvement while not a citizen anymore:

Thank you for your service to the region. Regardless of your status in the Cabinet, you have been and I imagine will remain a pillar of the community. I hope that you reconsider allowing your Citizenship to lapse. I won't run a Citizenship check until right before the next election, so you have a few days if you change your mind.

EDIT 3: Also, saying that the Storting was addressing my issues is misremembering it quite a bit. The Storting was so inactive at that point that nothing whatsoever came of the debate. Even the new Underhusen has been reluctant to even touch on the subject.

Well I mean, he's got a point.

What he stated then is true, since you've done a lot for the region.  But what he stated now is true as well since you renounced citizenship immediately, but still want to get involved with the discussions that are in a forum meant soley for current citizens.

It's true that I renounced mine as well, but I specifically said it would happen when my nation CTEs since the next time it does, I won't revive it. 

The citizenship bit by him wasn't meant to insult you, it's pointing out the oddity of it since if you're not a citizen, that area shouldn't really be of interest anyway.  And as he stated, he's even been giving proposals to loosen the citizenship requirements to extend to those who don't go on NS.

It just begs the question that if you're still interested in the conversations, why not reinstate your nation until a new citizenship expansion law passes? 

See my above point about just how fruitful that discussion was.

EDIT: Let's not forget that the discussion was pretty much non-existent until our resignations (and in my case, renouncement of citizenship). My citizenship should have been stripped long before that.

My interests didn't suddenly change with the resignation. If you don't want me to take part or share my opinion of the matters, then here's a thought: don't make them accessible to non-citizens at all.

I did, as well as everything else above.  It was an interesting thing to wake up to.

But anyways, that just means that they have to be pushed about it to get it jumpstarted.  It's an important law to be considered.