View Topic

Regarding Govindia's attempt to exclude his behavior in IRC:

Additionally, this is not a court case, but an Act to revoke Citizenship...revocation acts don't necessarily have to be justified with legal arguments like a court case would, just contain reasons that the Storting agrees with. Therefore arguments of jurisdictions are even less valid in this case.

Nuff said.

Regarding Govindia's attempt to exclude his behavior in IRC:

Additionally, this is not a court case, but an Act to revoke Citizenship...revocation acts don't necessarily have to be justified with legal arguments like a court case would, just contain reasons that the Storting agrees with. Therefore arguments of jurisdictions are even less valid in this case.

Nuff said.

The storting's job is to legislate, not assume jurisdiction.  Jurisdiction is only explicitly determined from current law and case precedence.  They have yet to legislate IRC jurisdictional boundaries for Wintreath, Reon and Wintermoot.

This is not a court case, evidence can be brought from anywhere.
The Storting has only the job to vote.

*only the job to vote in this.
Obviously in most things we have to do more...

As an ordinary Citizen who is as distanced from the establishment as can be, I think this revocation is a good idea. This is based on various posts around this forum as well as trust in the members of the Storting.

Blind trust in government is never a good idea, and one must dig deeper, sir.

It's not blind trust. I'm not the one making the decision nor have much to lose or gain from it since I barely know you. These guys, however, are making this decision together. You must understand that if I don't know much about something then I'm inclined to trust a group of people who have evidence and reasoning to come to the same conclusion despite their differing views on so many other things - these people, by the way, were elected to make decisions such as this in the first place.

If you really want me to dig deeper, then is this the first time you've been excluded from an NS community? What reasons have others put forward to exclude you?

As an ordinary Citizen who is as distanced from the establishment as can be, I think this revocation is a good idea. This is based on various posts around this forum as well as trust in the members of the Storting.

Blind trust in government is never a good idea, and one must dig deeper, sir.

It's not blind trust. I'm not the one making the decision nor have much to lose or gain from it since I barely know you. These guys, however, are making this decision together. You must understand that if I don't know much about something then I'm inclined to trust a group of people who have evidence and reasoning to come to the same conclusion despite their differing views on so many other things - these people, by the way, were elected to make decisions such as this in the first place.

If you really want me to dig deeper, then is this the first time you've been excluded from an NS community? What reasons have others put forward to exclude you?

I'm actually generally refusing to respond to this thread since I'm letting Gov post his responses and not letting it turn into more arguments, but I did want to respond to this.  This isn't by far his first time he's been excluded from a NS region/community.  In fact, I believe we're one of the only regions in NS that is even allowing him to be here, as he was banned in many of the other regions for similar behavior.

I'm testing something that has nothing to do with the discussion. Please ignore.

As an ordinary Citizen who is as distanced from the establishment as can be, I think this revocation is a good idea. This is based on various posts around this forum as well as trust in the members of the Storting.

Blind trust in government is never a good idea, and one must dig deeper, sir.

It's not blind trust. I'm not the one making the decision nor have much to lose or gain from it since I barely know you. These guys, however, are making this decision together. You must understand that if I don't know much about something then I'm inclined to trust a group of people who have evidence and reasoning to come to the same conclusion despite their differing views on so many other things - these people, by the way, were elected to make decisions such as this in the first place.

If you really want me to dig deeper, then is this the first time you've been excluded from an NS community? What reasons have others put forward to exclude you?

I'm actually generally refusing to respond to this thread since I'm letting Gov post his responses and not letting it turn into more arguments, but I did want to respond to this.  This isn't by far his first time he's been excluded from a NS region/community.  In fact, I believe we're one of the only regions in NS that is even allowing him to be here, as he was banned in many of the other regions for similar behavior.

I'm allowed in other regions besides Wintreath.  RIA for instance.

However, no, this is not the first time I have been excluded.  Many other regions have excluded me due to personality conflicts, and have in many cases circumvented their judicial laws, including right of due process, to remove me.  There have been claims I have raped and stalked others, but none of this has been proven.  I've never stalked anyone, and my mother taught me to behave like a gentleman with a strict code of honour and integrity.  I have never physically harmed someone in an offensive manner, and the only times I've gotten in fights was when I've had to defend myself.  There have also been claims I have restraining orders against me, but I have no criminal record.  Unibot and others who've made these accusations have not been able to provide evidence, claiming regional security or whatever.  Those who have questioned him have been insulted back in response.  Ask Wintermoot what Unibot called Horse. 

The only times I have been in court IRL have been for dealing with traffic tickets, becoming a naturalised citizen when I was about 12, mock trial cases, and helping a friend get through their first traffic ticket when their licence got suspended and vehicle impounded.

Going back to the issue at hand, it is disappointing to see some members of the UH prematurely want to make prejudiced statements and are attempting to rush this to vote before I can adequately respond to this.

To also respond to some of the discussions in the Storting:

@Pengu:

In a few messageboards including TNP, the Mods and Admins all got together to discuss Govindia's citizenship, and their conversations fell along similar lines as ours.  In fact, I'd like to say that our PM is practically identical to what other regions have done as well.

TNP situation is not relevant nor does it concern things here.  This is an internal Wintreath matter.

I'm also noticing that despite the things I've heard those same officials say NOW about him (which are generally quite negative), at one point many of them took similar approaches we did: Issuing informal to formal warnings, worked with him on issues and gave him mountains of chances to settle down on things that he'd refuse to back down upon.  Some mods were very courteous to him, some were strictly business, et cetra, et cetra.  So my question is: Do we want Wintreath to turn out that way as well?  Do we really want the decision of having Gov to eventually push us to where when another region comes up to us and asks about him, we're citing all of these horrible times that he did all of this stuff because we continued to allow him to do it until it was essentially the point of no return?

This is an overreaction to an incident that was started by poor communication on Pengu's part.  People need to start going off of logic and rationality, not just feelings and emotions.  It appears that everyone's feelings matter rather than logic, and when it comes to how I feel, that's disregarded always.

But to that I ask: What exactly has Gov learned since he's been here?  His behavior on here has been arguably identical to how it was on TNP, and that identical to how it was on Taijitu, and so on.  In all honesty, as much as we've tried to work with him on here, I don't think he's learned a thing except that we're letting him get away with the things he does, because he's been getting continuous slaps on the wrists outside of the chat-bans (which he responded very negatively to in his persisting to Mooty to overturn it and saying he was in the wrong for issuing it).

Illogical comparison to bring up how I was treated in TNP and Taijitu, especially Taijitu, to this region.  Taijitu staged a mock kangaroo court to accuse me of being a threat and resorted to attacking my character and providing hearsay evidence instead of actual evidence to show I'm a threat.

1) Has absolutely no objections to turning absolutely any subject into something about him (which is more an annoyance than anything else)

Not every discussion involves me or something about me? 

2) Will not hesitate to ask everyone who walks into the room (IRC for example) to look at something/talk about something/talk to him, when they may not want to do any of those things (IE, pinging everyone that walked in IRC yesterday to look at his picture of his cat, asking everyone who pops up in a thread what they think about what he posted)

Ok so what?  I like sharing pictures or things I find interesting to discuss.  Nox does it too quite a lot, and no one complains about that?  That's not something worth discussing citizenship revocation for.....

3) Will equally not hesitate to INSIST upon you doing what #2 states (via repeated pinging in main chat and Query chat as well as using Zaphyr even when you're online, quoting you in threads to make sure you know that he wants you to tell him what you think)

This is an exaggeration.  This claim was based on how because of Pengu's poor communication and passive-aggressiveness, I was trying to speak to Pengu because I SERIOUSLY was wanting to look for him for support when I was upset.  He not ONCE explained to me he was not able to speak to me, and assumed he thought I knew when he doesn't communicate.  I expressed how I feel, and he was upset that I expressed that I seriously felt hurt with how he treated me.  He essentially invalidated my feelings because he felt his feelings take precedence, which is really horrible and selfish IMO.

4) Will constantly bait others into starting arguments with him over little things (IE saying things such as "such and such, the person I thought cared obviously doesn't")

There is no baiting.  I explained how I felt, and I thought you cared enough to listen, and it turned out Pengu didn't.  Expressing how I felt someone felt about me is not baiting.  My feelings, and opinions, matter as much as anyone else's.  It is NOT baiting if I expressed how I felt hurt because I trusted another person to care about what I had to say.  It is NOT baiting to express an OPINION.  Disagree with my opinion, fine, but it is not considered baiting at all.

5) Will not hesitate to flame others including the Monarch himself, and will be the first to cry foul when others do it to him.

I do not deliberately flame others, and other people have baited and targeted me before, riling me up and knowing how to push my buttons.

6) Will not stop until the other person completely submits and says that he's in the right, even if he's not.  Even if asked to stop repeatedly, whether by the person he's harassing or by others, he has shown that he will continue until his feelings are met, regardless of the other person's.  This includes IRC chats, threads, and badgering in PMs.

False.  I do not say I am always right, and yes when DIRECTLY asked to stop I do stop.  I will state as I have mentioned before, if people communicate with me in a DIRECT and REASONABLE manner, I will oblige in kind.  If people do not communicate with me properly and resort to passive-aggressive behaviour, then that is unreasonable and does not work with me.

7) Will not own up to his mistakes.  He'll sooner call you out for not responding how he wants you to (or at all, period) rather than realize that his badgering is the real problem (IE, his tendency to call people passive aggressive when they choose not to respond to him).

I do own up to mistakes and have also made apologies for them.  You have not.  The real problem is your passive aggressive behaviour, which is childish and wrong to do. You were in the wrong to not communicate with me nor acknowledge I was trying to speak with you.  You disrespected me, and the expectation to respect you when you hurt and disrespect me is hypocritical and unreasonable.

I was going to talk to him on IRC about it, but he's obviously a bit bitter since the only thing he said to me was "The fact that you think this is all a joke to you is sad and twisted."  The fact that anyone thinks that I would consider this a joke and would be having a laugh about it is sorely mistaken.  While I did push for an Act on this and even wrote it up...this is not something I take pleasure in doing.  In fact, I said it in the main discussion before this, and I'll say it again in public record: I'm actually severely disappointed in the fact that the first Act/bill I've ever written up and introduced ended up being a Revocation.  It's literally one of the last things I ever wanted to even consider writing up.  But at this point in time, I feel like it's necessary.

I wanted to resolve this privately with Pengu but instead I'm being shamed and ridiculed publicly just because he couldn't communicate well.  I'm being unduly blamed for something that is NOT entirely my fault here.

I am not harmful to Wintreath, and I enjoy this region very much, and I have been very supportive of certain policies here and there, and been very loyal in the WHR.  Alterra was more harmful to Wintreath than my personality seems to be.

@Reon:

1. He has shown himself to repeatedly be, if not the cause, the catalyst for trouble and harm.

False, that is not always the case.  Again, it is unreasonable to blame me for everything that has happened.  Others are not free from blame.

2. He is intrusive on other's lives in a negative way, consistently pestering others and insisting that something be focused on.

How am I intrusive when people don't communicate with me properly?  I am a direct person.  I can only understand if people communicate with me directly.  If people are going to be passive in their way of communicating with others, that's unreasonable and I am not able to understand that well at all.  I do not intrude into people's lives.  I ask people how they're doing and what's going on with them, no more than you, Nox or anyone else communicates with others. 

3. This one is really just a personal thing of mine. Relates to my personality and life and just really makes me feel... Icky. Overall it's the one I'm most passionate about but contributes the least to my voting. He used autism as a defense. I do not appreciate that kind of thing. I'm autistic. My mother is more autistic than I. Don't use your difference as an excuse for poor behavior. That disrespects yourself and others who may share a similar difference. In an optimal world either no one would have any differences or everyone could faithfully accept everyone else's. We do not live in that optimal world and in either of our lifetimes it is desperately unlikely to occur. So stop being surprised by it and start accounting for its disgusting failure.

I'm not defending myself by saying I'm autistic.  I have had to explain I am possibly autistic because people don't seem to understand my personality.  This has happened before to me IRL as well.  The way I understand things is different from others.  It requires a lot more direct explanation and understanding of things than most people would do.  I'm not using, nor would I ever use autism as an excuse.  I have only mentioned it so people have an understanding of where I am coming from.  I am not normal.  I probably have not been normal probably since my Mum died in 2004, which is where seemingly most, if not all of my social issues, began to arise.  I'm not sure.

I'm not even autistic, and that statement of his disgusted me. It is conjecture from me, but I think he's realised he's fucked up, and now he's playing the "feel sorry for me because I have autism" card. I know, and have known, quite a few people with Asperger's Syndrome, and while everything isn't always butterflies and roses, none of them have displayed this level of irresponsibility for their own mistakes.

I'm not playing any card Laurentus.  You have made a lot of prejudiced statements based on hearsay and what others have said about me without making any much of a reasonable attempt to get to know me, so I don't think you have a right to pass judgment on someone whom you do not know, or made an attempt to understand.  So if you want to get to know me, get on IRC when I'm around and we'll have a chat.  Otherwise please stop making statements like you understand and know how I feel and how I act, because you do not, and I am offended when people assume things about me or prejudge me, which is how I feel you are acting towards me.

As I have said, I am not always aware that my behaviour may upset others.  How I understand things is different from other people, and in some cases it takes longer for me to understand.  If someone takes me aside and explains what I'm doing wrong, and how I can correct it, and actually HELP me and understand me, and explain things to me so I can logically understand, I'm more than likely to listen as that is reasonable.  Publicly scolding me, attacking me, telling me I'm doing things wrong, or not communicating to me in a direct form will not help me get along well, nor will it help me understand things well.  I am a direct person, and I communicate directly with people.  That's how I was brought up, and how I was raised.  I don't deal with passive aggressive communication well.  I've had negative experiences with it IRL

Honestly, this is getting way out of hand, and is a little unreasonable.

I was feeling upset because I was looking for support because it was the one year anniversary of the death of my first cat that I ever owned, a cat, that, along with his brother, helped me mentally and emotionally a lot at times and prevented me from going off the handle.  Pengu didn't tell me he was not in a mood to talk.  I couldn't read his mind.  I really wanted to speak to him, as I trusted him to care how I feel.  When he deliberately ignores me for whatever reason, and doesn't even, as a courtesy acknowledges I was trying to address him, yeah, it hurts.  I was upset.

Don't punish me because I also have feelings and I expressed how I feel.  This is out of line.  I also have a right to express how I feel.  I have a right to say I felt hurt that someone that I thought I could count on for support left me in the cold.  I have a right to express how I feel and you HAVE to respect that.

This revocation hearing shows that my feelings do not matter, only Pengu's does, and everyone else's.  My feelings, opinions, they matter as much as anyone else's.  I'm not a lesser person than anyone else here.   The lack of understanding by condoning Pengu's behaviour apparently shows that well, I have very few people now,  who I can trust to be genuine people in this region who actually care about everyone and not select people.

And yes, I am upset still, and frustrated, and I am doing my best to remain calm.  This is my opinion, how I am feeling, for whoever actually genuinely cares still.

To the point of "before you have adequately responded"
You have written an entire two pages worth in the according threads and such.
More if I count what you wrote in reference to the Pengu situation in the say what's on your mind thread...

To the point of "before you have adequately responded"
You have written an entire two pages worth in the according threads and such.
More if I count what you wrote in reference to the Pengu situation in the say what's on your mind thread...

I was concerned people in the UH would expedite the vote before I had a chance to respond at all.

As an ordinary Citizen who is as distanced from the establishment as can be, I think this revocation is a good idea. This is based on various posts around this forum as well as trust in the members of the Storting.

Blind trust in government is never a good idea, and one must dig deeper, sir.

It's not blind trust. I'm not the one making the decision nor have much to lose or gain from it since I barely know you. These guys, however, are making this decision together. You must understand that if I don't know much about something then I'm inclined to trust a group of people who have evidence and reasoning to come to the same conclusion despite their differing views on so many other things - these people, by the way, were elected to make decisions such as this in the first place.

If you really want me to dig deeper, then is this the first time you've been excluded from an NS community? What reasons have others put forward to exclude you?

I'm actually generally refusing to respond to this thread since I'm letting Gov post his responses and not letting it turn into more arguments, but I did want to respond to this.  This isn't by far his first time he's been excluded from a NS region/community.  In fact, I believe we're one of the only regions in NS that is even allowing him to be here, as he was banned in many of the other regions for similar behavior.

I'm allowed in other regions besides Wintreath.  RIA for instance.

However, no, this is not the first time I have been excluded.  Many other regions have excluded me due to personality conflicts, and have in many cases circumvented their judicial laws, including right of due process, to remove me.  There have been claims I have raped and stalked others, but none of this has been proven.  I've never stalked anyone, and my mother taught me to behave like a gentleman with a strict code of honour and integrity.  I have never physically harmed someone in an offensive manner, and the only times I've gotten in fights was when I've had to defend myself.  There have also been claims I have restraining orders against me, but I have no criminal record.  Unibot and others who've made these accusations have not been able to provide evidence, claiming regional security or whatever.  Those who have questioned him have been insulted back in response.  Ask Wintermoot what Unibot called Horse. 

The only times I have been in court IRL have been for dealing with traffic tickets, becoming a naturalised citizen when I was about 12, mock trial cases, and helping a friend get through their first traffic ticket when their licence got suspended and vehicle impounded.

Going back to the issue at hand, it is disappointing to see some members of the UH prematurely want to make prejudiced statements and are attempting to rush this to vote before I can adequately respond to this.

To also respond to some of the discussions in the Storting:

@Pengu:

In a few messageboards including TNP, the Mods and Admins all got together to discuss Govindia's citizenship, and their conversations fell along similar lines as ours.  In fact, I'd like to say that our PM is practically identical to what other regions have done as well.

TNP situation is not relevant nor does it concern things here.  This is an internal Wintreath matter.

I'm also noticing that despite the things I've heard those same officials say NOW about him (which are generally quite negative), at one point many of them took similar approaches we did: Issuing informal to formal warnings, worked with him on issues and gave him mountains of chances to settle down on things that he'd refuse to back down upon.  Some mods were very courteous to him, some were strictly business, et cetra, et cetra.  So my question is: Do we want Wintreath to turn out that way as well?  Do we really want the decision of having Gov to eventually push us to where when another region comes up to us and asks about him, we're citing all of these horrible times that he did all of this stuff because we continued to allow him to do it until it was essentially the point of no return?

This is an overreaction to an incident that was started by poor communication on Pengu's part.  People need to start going off of logic and rationality, not just feelings and emotions.  It appears that everyone's feelings matter rather than logic, and when it comes to how I feel, that's disregarded always.

But to that I ask: What exactly has Gov learned since he's been here?  His behavior on here has been arguably identical to how it was on TNP, and that identical to how it was on Taijitu, and so on.  In all honesty, as much as we've tried to work with him on here, I don't think he's learned a thing except that we're letting him get away with the things he does, because he's been getting continuous slaps on the wrists outside of the chat-bans (which he responded very negatively to in his persisting to Mooty to overturn it and saying he was in the wrong for issuing it).

Illogical comparison to bring up how I was treated in TNP and Taijitu, especially Taijitu, to this region.  Taijitu staged a mock kangaroo court to accuse me of being a threat and resorted to attacking my character and providing hearsay evidence instead of actual evidence to show I'm a threat.

1) Has absolutely no objections to turning absolutely any subject into something about him (which is more an annoyance than anything else)

Not every discussion involves me or something about me? 

2) Will not hesitate to ask everyone who walks into the room (IRC for example) to look at something/talk about something/talk to him, when they may not want to do any of those things (IE, pinging everyone that walked in IRC yesterday to look at his picture of his cat, asking everyone who pops up in a thread what they think about what he posted)

Ok so what?  I like sharing pictures or things I find interesting to discuss.  Nox does it too quite a lot, and no one complains about that?  That's not something worth discussing citizenship revocation for.....

3) Will equally not hesitate to INSIST upon you doing what #2 states (via repeated pinging in main chat and Query chat as well as using Zaphyr even when you're online, quoting you in threads to make sure you know that he wants you to tell him what you think)

This is an exaggeration.  This claim was based on how because of Pengu's poor communication and passive-aggressiveness, I was trying to speak to Pengu because I SERIOUSLY was wanting to look for him for support when I was upset.  He not ONCE explained to me he was not able to speak to me, and assumed he thought I knew when he doesn't communicate.  I expressed how I feel, and he was upset that I expressed that I seriously felt hurt with how he treated me.  He essentially invalidated my feelings because he felt his feelings take precedence, which is really horrible and selfish IMO.

4) Will constantly bait others into starting arguments with him over little things (IE saying things such as "such and such, the person I thought cared obviously doesn't")

There is no baiting.  I explained how I felt, and I thought you cared enough to listen, and it turned out Pengu didn't.  Expressing how I felt someone felt about me is not baiting.  My feelings, and opinions, matter as much as anyone else's.  It is NOT baiting if I expressed how I felt hurt because I trusted another person to care about what I had to say.  It is NOT baiting to express an OPINION.  Disagree with my opinion, fine, but it is not considered baiting at all.

5) Will not hesitate to flame others including the Monarch himself, and will be the first to cry foul when others do it to him.

I do not deliberately flame others, and other people have baited and targeted me before, riling me up and knowing how to push my buttons.

6) Will not stop until the other person completely submits and says that he's in the right, even if he's not.  Even if asked to stop repeatedly, whether by the person he's harassing or by others, he has shown that he will continue until his feelings are met, regardless of the other person's.  This includes IRC chats, threads, and badgering in PMs.

False.  I do not say I am always right, and yes when DIRECTLY asked to stop I do stop.  I will state as I have mentioned before, if people communicate with me in a DIRECT and REASONABLE manner, I will oblige in kind.  If people do not communicate with me properly and resort to passive-aggressive behaviour, then that is unreasonable and does not work with me.

7) Will not own up to his mistakes.  He'll sooner call you out for not responding how he wants you to (or at all, period) rather than realize that his badgering is the real problem (IE, his tendency to call people passive aggressive when they choose not to respond to him).

I do own up to mistakes and have also made apologies for them.  You have not.  The real problem is your passive aggressive behaviour, which is childish and wrong to do. You were in the wrong to not communicate with me nor acknowledge I was trying to speak with you.  You disrespected me, and the expectation to respect you when you hurt and disrespect me is hypocritical and unreasonable.

I was going to talk to him on IRC about it, but he's obviously a bit bitter since the only thing he said to me was "The fact that you think this is all a joke to you is sad and twisted."  The fact that anyone thinks that I would consider this a joke and would be having a laugh about it is sorely mistaken.  While I did push for an Act on this and even wrote it up...this is not something I take pleasure in doing.  In fact, I said it in the main discussion before this, and I'll say it again in public record: I'm actually severely disappointed in the fact that the first Act/bill I've ever written up and introduced ended up being a Revocation.  It's literally one of the last things I ever wanted to even consider writing up.  But at this point in time, I feel like it's necessary.

I wanted to resolve this privately with Pengu but instead I'm being shamed and ridiculed publicly just because he couldn't communicate well.  I'm being unduly blamed for something that is NOT entirely my fault here.

I am not harmful to Wintreath, and I enjoy this region very much, and I have been very supportive of certain policies here and there, and been very loyal in the WHR.  Alterra was more harmful to Wintreath than my personality seems to be.

@Reon:

1. He has shown himself to repeatedly be, if not the cause, the catalyst for trouble and harm.

False, that is not always the case.  Again, it is unreasonable to blame me for everything that has happened.  Others are not free from blame.

2. He is intrusive on other's lives in a negative way, consistently pestering others and insisting that something be focused on.

How am I intrusive when people don't communicate with me properly?  I am a direct person.  I can only understand if people communicate with me directly.  If people are going to be passive in their way of communicating with others, that's unreasonable and I am not able to understand that well at all.  I do not intrude into people's lives.  I ask people how they're doing and what's going on with them, no more than you, Nox or anyone else communicates with others. 

3. This one is really just a personal thing of mine. Relates to my personality and life and just really makes me feel... Icky. Overall it's the one I'm most passionate about but contributes the least to my voting. He used autism as a defense. I do not appreciate that kind of thing. I'm autistic. My mother is more autistic than I. Don't use your difference as an excuse for poor behavior. That disrespects yourself and others who may share a similar difference. In an optimal world either no one would have any differences or everyone could faithfully accept everyone else's. We do not live in that optimal world and in either of our lifetimes it is desperately unlikely to occur. So stop being surprised by it and start accounting for its disgusting failure.

I'm not defending myself by saying I'm autistic.  I have had to explain I am possibly autistic because people don't seem to understand my personality.  This has happened before to me IRL as well.  The way I understand things is different from others.  It requires a lot more direct explanation and understanding of things than most people would do.  I'm not using, nor would I ever use autism as an excuse.  I have only mentioned it so people have an understanding of where I am coming from.  I am not normal.  I probably have not been normal probably since my Mum died in 2004, which is where seemingly most, if not all of my social issues, began to arise.  I'm not sure.

I'm not even autistic, and that statement of his disgusted me. It is conjecture from me, but I think he's realised he's fucked up, and now he's playing the "feel sorry for me because I have autism" card. I know, and have known, quite a few people with Asperger's Syndrome, and while everything isn't always butterflies and roses, none of them have displayed this level of irresponsibility for their own mistakes.

I'm not playing any card Laurentus.  You have made a lot of prejudiced statements based on hearsay and what others have said about me without making any much of a reasonable attempt to get to know me, so I don't think you have a right to pass judgment on someone whom you do not know, or made an attempt to understand.  So if you want to get to know me, get on IRC when I'm around and we'll have a chat.  Otherwise please stop making statements like you understand and know how I feel and how I act, because you do not, and I am offended when people assume things about me or prejudge me, which is how I feel you are acting towards me.

As I have said, I am not always aware that my behaviour may upset others.  How I understand things is different from other people, and in some cases it takes longer for me to understand.  If someone takes me aside and explains what I'm doing wrong, and how I can correct it, and actually HELP me and understand me, and explain things to me so I can logically understand, I'm more than likely to listen as that is reasonable.  Publicly scolding me, attacking me, telling me I'm doing things wrong, or not communicating to me in a direct form will not help me get along well, nor will it help me understand things well.  I am a direct person, and I communicate directly with people.  That's how I was brought up, and how I was raised.  I don't deal with passive aggressive communication well.  I've had negative experiences with it IRL

Honestly, this is getting way out of hand, and is a little unreasonable.

I was feeling upset because I was looking for support because it was the one year anniversary of the death of my first cat that I ever owned, a cat, that, along with his brother, helped me mentally and emotionally a lot at times and prevented me from going off the handle.  Pengu didn't tell me he was not in a mood to talk.  I couldn't read his mind.  I really wanted to speak to him, as I trusted him to care how I feel.  When he deliberately ignores me for whatever reason, and doesn't even, as a courtesy acknowledges I was trying to address him, yeah, it hurts.  I was upset.

Don't punish me because I also have feelings and I expressed how I feel.  This is out of line.  I also have a right to express how I feel.  I have a right to say I felt hurt that someone that I thought I could count on for support left me in the cold.  I have a right to express how I feel and you HAVE to respect that.

This revocation hearing shows that my feelings do not matter, only Pengu's does, and everyone else's.  My feelings, opinions, they matter as much as anyone else's.  I'm not a lesser person than anyone else here.   The lack of understanding by condoning Pengu's behaviour apparently shows that well, I have very few people now,  who I can trust to be genuine people in this region who actually care about everyone and not select people.

And yes, I am upset still, and frustrated, and I am doing my best to remain calm.  This is my opinion, how I am feeling, for whoever actually genuinely cares still.

I have bolded the part that I'm addressing here now, as I feel we have addressed the other points appropriately.

A great part of why I wanted to push this to vote so quickly was precisely because this is an unpleasant place we've arrived at.

And from previous online interactions with people with autism, I have become aware that some of you attach a tone of voice to the text, and often misinterpret it. So let me state with what tone you should read this. I am truly angry about you using autism as an excuse when you very clearly know better, but at the same time, my tone is sombre and resigned, because I absolutely hate having to do this to anyone. You unfortunately haven't left us with a choice here. And my tone of voice is now regretful.

Yes. This entire thing is a bloody mess. For all your talks about using logic and stating things directly, when someone (including me) has tried this, you take it as a disrespectful personal attack, precisely because you are on edge with your emotions. If you had addressed Pengu on PM to begin with, without pushing so aggressively for an answer, and just otherwise being more chilled in your manner, I can't promise Pengu would have responded, nor that he would have done so in a way that you understood, agreed with or even liked, but at least then you wouldn't have made the atmosphere in the region toxic.

People have disagreements, people sometimes don't like each other, or get along at all, and sometimes people will get angry at each other. As much as this hurts, it is a fact of life. I can be reasonably certain that most of us here have at least once in our lives had a falling-out with someone we thought we could trust, and who we thought we could turn to when we felt bad, and then finding out that we couldn't. It sucks. It really sucks. But such is life, and the responsible response would have been to cut that person out, or more calmly try to fix things. This can't be done when both people are at the height of their emotions. At that point, the best course of action is to distance oneself from the situation, to gain space, to calm down, and to come back to whatever we need to deal with when we feel better. 

I have stated that Pengu could have handled the situation better, but while you are not responsible for the way in which Pengu behaves, you are always responsible for the way YOU behave, and in this instance, your behaviour didn't just hurt Pengu, but the collective harmony of the region. That is the issue at hand here. You place your own emotional state (or at least we perceive it this way, whether you intend it so or not) above the community. We don't want to see your personal disputes. If Pengu were the one that would have made such public scenes, he would be the one up for the revocation of his citizenship. It is harassment, and harassment just isn't permissible.

You stated we're over-reacting here. The only reason it has come to this is because you over-reacted to Pengu's perceived cold shoulder. He did, repeatedly, as documented, tell you to stop. You didn't.

None of us take pleasure in this. I certainly don't. I don't know how anyone can. And yet this can't be ignored, otherwise the region will become ever more toxic. I don't think I'm speaking only for myself.

I am truly angry about you using autism as an excuse when you very clearly know better, but at the same time, my tone is sombre and resigned, because I absolutely hate having to do this to anyone.

I did not use autism as an excuse.  Read my statement again.

You stated we're over-reacting here. The only reason it has come to this is because you over-reacted to Pengu's perceived cold shoulder. He did, repeatedly, as documented, tell you to stop. You didn't.

Pengu did not acknowledge why I wanted to speak to him, nor did he communicate with me that he did not want to talk.   He only cared about how he felt and nothing else.

This is an overreaction and this would have not happened had Pengu learned to communicate better.  Pengu shares a good portion of the blame here, and he is not taking any responsibility.  Everyone is condoning his behaviour from how this appears.

No one is condoning his behavior, in point of fact, all of us, including Pengu, have said things against his actions.

But more so and to be clear... This revocation is not simply because of this event. It is because of a slew of events directly related consistently to you that have caused a consistently toxic environment in the region.

Whether it be simply because people hate you or genuinely because you are directly the cause of unpleasantness is nigh-impossible to determine. However what is determined is that you are always part of it. Every time. Therefore and for this reason I support this.
This is only the straw that broke the camel's back. One of many many things. This is not a you vs. Pengu case. We're not defending Pengu. We're doing what we think is best for the region after many frustrations, arguments, and debates. I would be confident in saying this is true for all the other Skrifa.
This is not an isolated case and nor is it an isolated decision.

I am truly angry about you using autism as an excuse when you very clearly know better, but at the same time, my tone is sombre and resigned, because I absolutely hate having to do this to anyone.

I did not use autism as an excuse.  Read my statement again.

You stated we're over-reacting here. The only reason it has come to this is because you over-reacted to Pengu's perceived cold shoulder. He did, repeatedly, as documented, tell you to stop. You didn't.

Pengu did not acknowledge why I wanted to speak to him, nor did he communicate with me that he did not want to talk.   He only cared about how he felt and nothing else.

This is an overreaction and this would have not happened had Pengu learned to communicate better.  Pengu shares a good portion of the blame here, and he is not taking any responsibility.  Everyone is condoning his behaviour from how this appears.

He didn't force you to harass anyone. Indeed, he didn't force you to over-react or do all the other things you've done to get banned from IRC. That's on you, and as long as you continue blaming other people, this isn't going to go well for you...

This is just a courtesy reminder that since this act was introduced on 8:37AM yesterday and it is currently 8:04/5 PM today, the discussion in the UH currently has a little over 12 hrs 30 m before the deadline is past and a motion made.  So if there are any more thoughts on this act, please state them in here so that your voice can be heard before the deadline (unless an extension ends up being made, which will give more time).