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[GUIDE]: How to use the damn Court System.
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Weissreich
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  • Okay folks, I thought I'd make a little - unnecessary insofar as I'm concerned but apparently others disagree - guide/explanation on how our Court System works.

    Quote
    2.1 In accordance with Section 3 (parts 1 and 2) of the Fundamental Laws of Wintreath, upon acceptance of a case by the Storting, the Monarch will select a Peer from the Overhusen and two Skifra from the Underhusen. The Peer will serve the duration of the trial (or 1 month) as Chief Justice, and the Skifra will serve the duration of the trial (or 1 month) as Associate Judges.

    Right, this is pretty simple. A case is put forward by a citizen of Wintreath and is accepted by the Storting by majority decision, at which point the Monarch selects one person from the Overhusen and two from the Underhusen to serve as Judges and Associate Judges. So far, so easy. The next section of the act merely explains a few details about terms and the Monarch's ability to reappoint Judges and Associate Judges should a case go on for more than one month.

    Quote
    2.3 A Peer or a Skifra of the Storting may not hold more than one judicial position at any one time if the combined number of members from both houses exceeds 14. If the combined number of members from both houses is less than 14, a Peer of Skifra may hold two judicial positions at any one time.

    This right here is so self-explanatory I barely see the need to include it, but there you go. If there's more than 14 people in the UH and OH combined, a member of either can hold ONE position as a Judge/Associate Judge at a time. If less, there's no limit.

    Quote
    3.1 Any Judge may call up to three witnesses on a given day to provide evidence on a case. A defendant can also request up to 3 witnesses in their defence on a given day.

    So simple it hurts me to look at. Judges can call witnesses they think appropriate to the case, FROM BOTH SIDES (defence and prosecution). The defendant has the right to call three witnesses per day, same as the Judges.

    Quote
    3.2 After all evidence is heard by the Court, the three Judges must discuss their verdict privately and inform no-one of the judgement until it is publicly announced by the Chief Justice.

    Blindingly obvious.

    Quote
    3.3 A Court can return a NOT GUILTY, a GUILTY or a RECOMMENDATION verdict.
    • NOT GUILTY - The Court finds the defendant innocent of his/her charge or specific charges, if more than one is brought.
    • GUILTY - The Court finds the defendant guilty of his/her charge or specific charges, if more than one is brought. The punishments for a GUILTY verdict are to be drawn from the Code of Criminal Law Act upon its passage.
    • RECOMMENDATION - The Court finds the defendant either innocent or guilty but recommends special provisions be made that fall outside of the remit of the Code of Criminal Law Act. It is up to the Monarch to decide whether to implement these recommendations. A case can therefore have an INNOCENT - RECOMMENDATION verdict and a GUILTY - RECOMMENDATION verdict.

    Like, I fail to see how this isn't clear enough. It details what verdicts a court can return and gives examples of.

    Quote
    4. Due Process
    4.1 When a Court is formed and a case brought before it, a topic must be created with the title laid out as follows by the Chief Justice:
    [CASE NUMBER][DEFENDANT NAME][CHIEF JUSTICE][DATE]

    The first post must then outline the name and charge of the defendant, the name of the Chief Justice and the names of the Associate Judges. This post should be updated to list witnesses called and by whom.

    4.2 Only the Court Officials (Chief Justice and the Associate Judges), the defendant and any witness called may post within the thread. Uninvolved citizens may observe the proceedings but cannot comment.

    4.3 During the proceedings, a Court Official who calls a witness must pose their questions within the same post they summon that witness. A witness then has one post to provide their responses to the questions put to them. At any time, a Court Official may post a question(s) for the defendant so long as no other questions for the defendant are unanswered and so long as no witness has questions left to answer.

    4.4 Once the Court feels it has enough evidence to reach a verdict, the Chief Justice must post to inform the public that the Officials are withdrawing to debate their verdict. From this point on, no-one is allowed to post in the thread until the next post by the Chief Justice announcing a verdict.

    4.5 The Chief Justice will then post the verdict in the thread and lock it once he/she has done so. The verdict should go through charge by charge and provide guilty/not guilty/recommendations for each individual charge the defendant is in court for. Punishments will be assigned for each individual charge and enacted upon as soon as the verdict is posted.

    4.6 If the Chief Justice and his Associate Judges feel more than 3 witnesses are required per day, they may argue the Monarch to raise the limit for the duration of a specific court case.

    You know, I was going to scrap this and start again because I thought it was actually too simple. Evidently not. The Judges/AJ's create a thread, outlining in the OP the charges, the defendant and those presiding over the case. Any and all witnesses called are added to the OP.

    From there, as outlined, only those involved in the case may post. It tells you how to summon and address witnesses, how to address the defendant and the ways of going about running the thread up until the Judges withdraw to debate their verdict, and then how to deliver said verdict.

    GOD I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY I'M DOING THIS LOOK AT HOW SIMPLE IT ALL GODDAMN IS!

    The last part of the Act details the Monarch's right to override and repeal court decisions as well as the Act's compliance with past and future laws.


    FOR THE RECORD, HERE IS THE LIST OF WHAT IS ILLEGAL IN WINTREATH. That Act, like the Judicial Offices Act, carefully details how it is to be applied in all situations.


    TL;DR You're all idiots if you think this court system is hard to understand. Refresh yourselves on the damn legislation and it'd make sense the way it was supposed to. There is nothing hard to comprehend here. Both of these Acts passed unanimously through the Underhusen and the Overhusen.

    That is all.
    1 person likes this post: Govindia
    « Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 07:39:26 PM by Weissreich »
    Duke Klause Edíl-Astos Meindhert
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    Weissreich
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  • Now, a little explanation seeing as some people have problems with the lack of separation of powers our current set-up contains. Back when this act and its sister, the code of criminal laws, were drafted, we had a far less active community on these forums. After a lot of debate with Mootles, I decided to draft it as drawing from the legislature because simply put - there wasn't enough activity to draw from anywhere else.

    Now that those times are hopefully behind us, I fully support an Amendment allowing this Act to draw its Judges and Associate Judges from the citizenry rather than the Storting. Should anyone wish, I'll draft said Amendment myself to clear out any remaining problems people have with this Act, whatever they could possibly be. I retain that an elected Judiciary lasting for a set term and not based on the case they are presiding over is a bad idea, creating an institution of power that's unneeded in Wintreath.
    « Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 07:31:48 PM by Weissreich »
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  • You do realize that will require a constitutional amendment...right?
    See you later space cowboy.
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  • Not particularly a stumbling block in this region - we're not the US Congress unable to agree on anything :p
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  • Not particularly a stumbling block in this region - we're not the US Congress unable to agree on anything :p

    You obviously didn't see the UH last term.
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    Weissreich
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  • Not particularly a stumbling block in this region - we're not the US Congress unable to agree on anything :p

    You obviously didn't see the UH last term.
    Correct - I did not. During my time in the UH there was never any issue with obstructionist politics; I'd hope the same is true of the current sitting. If it isn't, perhaps the current sitting should sort itself out ;)
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    Laurentus
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  • The fact remains that it is far less efficient than Wintermoot being the court, as (and I hate arguing from an ideological standpoint) a monarch is actually supposed to be.

    And this:
    Quote from: Section 5
    5. Recall and Appeal
    5.1 The Monarch has the Right of Recall. If after a one week period has passed since a verdict was decided the Monarch wishes for a retrial, he/she may summon a new Court to hear the case again.
    5.2 A defendant, if found guilty, may Appeal his/her case after 2 weeks have passed since a verdict was decided. To do so, a defendant must speak directly with the Monarch and gain his/her approval.

    ... Like... why not cut out the middleman and just have the monarch be the court system then? Since this is also a meritocracy, why should a civil, democratic system need to be used? Ugh.
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  • I have one question. Can anyone explain to me when under current law there would be more than 14 people in the OH and UH combined?

    As far as I see it, the OH has a max of 5 and the UH a max of 7, bringing the combined total at maximum to 12 and thus nowhere near this 14 limit.

    What was the reasoning behind using 14 as a number there?
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    Weissreich
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  • The fact remains that it is far less efficient than Wintermoot being the court, as (and I hate arguing from an ideological standpoint) a monarch is actually supposed to be.

    And this:
    Quote from: Section 5
    5. Recall and Appeal
    5.1 The Monarch has the Right of Recall. If after a one week period has passed since a verdict was decided the Monarch wishes for a retrial, he/she may summon a new Court to hear the case again.
    5.2 A defendant, if found guilty, may Appeal his/her case after 2 weeks have passed since a verdict was decided. To do so, a defendant must speak directly with the Monarch and gain his/her approval.

    ... Like... why not cut out the middleman and just have the monarch be the court system then? Since this is also a meritocracy, why should a civil, democratic system need to be used? Ugh.
    When asked, Mootles at the time said he'd prefer to have a Judiciary separate of himself, IIRC. This act reflects that desire - I doubt I'd have drafted something this long if Mootles wanted to be the Courts himself.

    I have one question. Can anyone explain to me when under current law there would be more than 14 people in the OH and UH combined?

    As far as I see it, the OH has a max of 5 and the UH a max of 7, bringing the combined total at maximum to 12 and thus nowhere near this 14 limit.

    What was the reasoning behind using 14 as a number there?

    This was when the debates about how many members there should be in a sitting were occurring and there was no established limit on either house - it was to account for potential growth in the future that was then restricted after this Act was passed.
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  • Ah, I thought that might have been the case, thanks for clearing that up :)
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  • We actually tossed the idea of drawing judges from the citizenry around, but the stumbling block there was, how do we assure the citizens chosen have the motivation, experience, and knowledge of Wintrean law to serve as judges and ultimately may be responsible for revoking a citizen's...citizenship.
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    Weissreich
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  • So... one problem isn't even a problem, and the other problem is that it's too complicated?

    You lot are honestly beyond me haha
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  • Well, something struck someone's nerve. :P


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  • Not particularly a stumbling block in this region - we're not the US Congress unable to agree on anything :p

    You obviously didn't see the UH last term.
    Correct - I did not. During my time in the UH there was never any issue with obstructionist politics; I'd hope the same is true of the current sitting. If it isn't, perhaps the current sitting should sort itself out ;)

    Basically it was an enlightening term with two very separate Judicial-centric Amendments.  One where a Reform that would do away with the court system (and I believe give the power to Mooty) had the most votes for it...yet failed, and one where the loopholes would be fixed and ended with 1 vote for, 1 abstain, 2 votes against, and one late vote for it at the end...yet passed (though failed in the OH due to it being considered an illegal ruling).
    « Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 01:31:09 AM by Pengu »
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    Chanku
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  • Again it's due to the natures of the bills. I'll explain this again:
    Also it was two aye votes...

    1) The first one was a Amendment to the Fundamental Laws, which requires a supermajority vote of 2/3rds, so 4 people with aye votes TOTAL.

    2) The Second one is a general law(and amendment to a general law) so it only requires a simple majority vote of 2/3rds so 3 people with aye votes Total (also note that technically this isn't needed. There is no defined number needed)

    So lets go over the votes:

    FL Amendment
    Aye: 3
    Nay: 1
    Abstain: 1

    Remember AYE MUST BE 4 PEOPLE. 3 != 4 so therefore it fails. No matter what...

    General Amendment
    Aye: 2
    Nay: 2
    Abstain: 1

    It was a tie.

    When you remove the abstain votes completely you get:

    FL Amendment
    Aye: 3
    Nay: 1

    General Amendment
    Aye: 2
    Nay: 2

    However, it must be noted that FL amendments require 4 ayes to pass, due to the FL itself requiring that. Therefore the FL Amendment Passes with 1 vote missing as an Aye.

    In the General Amendment it is a tie. Therefore UH procedure dictates it move to the OH.
    See you later space cowboy.
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