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Greetings!

As I'm sure everyone knows, we are back at step one regarding our judicial system. As a region now over one year old, I believe that this is something we should get resolved. Obviously everyone has their different opinion, so I will outline mine below, and I encourage others to critique my opinion and to add their own.

Step 1. Repeal the Judicial Offices Act, which will lift certain restrictions that will prevent our further creation of the new judicial system.

Step 2. Repeal Article 15 of the Fundamental Laws. This will repeal the final restriction on our creation of a new judicial system.

Step 3. Pass a bill which will give the Monarch the power to form arbitration committees, which will be the basis of our new judicial system. These committees should be made up of the Monarch and two citizens without a conflict of interest.

This plan takes into consideration the opinion of the Honourable friend, Reon, who stated that "Wintermoot is god-king, which we are all in general alright with and there's really no difference between him and possibly other admins deciding shit and a group of random people doing it."

______________________
The Hon. Denth Kasten
Speaker Pro Tempore

Truly, I am a wordsmith. I agree pretty heartily with you on these steps. Two appointed citizens does seem like a good amount... My genuine only worry with this is if Wintermoot is okay with taking this extra responsibility...
Wintermoot?

I'm sure we could even allow him to delegate his spot on a committee to a member of the Riksrad or OH, if he wanted.

Why not let it be "The Monarch or the Monarch's designee.", like there is in some other pieces of legislation?

That sounds possible.

Truly, I am a wordsmith. I agree pretty heartily with you on these steps. Two appointed citizens does seem like a good amount... My genuine only worry with this is if Wintermoot is okay with taking this extra responsibility...
Wintermoot?

I must point out that my goal in this was not to concentrate judicial power in the Executive...in fact, my proposal gave the Storting the say on almost all aspects of the judicial system, from confirming the random method of selection to be utilized to allowing it to vet and approve potential jurors before being added to the pool. My goal was the adoption of a fair system to dispense justice that would align with the fact that we are a community-based region, and not a political one. I wanted to avoid the pitfalls of other regions in creating a judicial system, namely a system that was inactive, allowed individuals to accumulate power on the bench, and/or was overly swayed by political or popular considerations. After all, there are many occasions when the just or fair action is hardly popular or politically convenient.

If the Storting wishes to transfer judicial authorities to the Executive, I will not oppose it and will abstain from those votes if they come to the Overhusen. However, you should be aware of what an Executive-led judicial system will look like.

I would first look into creating a Justice ministry, if I could find an experienced and willing candidate to chair such a ministry...it would be responsible for creating the court procedures and rules. Additionally, the Jarl of Justice would preside over criminal cases. We would then create a pool of potential jurors, based on their time in the region, activity, and knowledge of the law and conflict management in general. I would drop the previous requirement that they be previous or current members of the Storting, though. As an example, I'm sure that community moderators (if we get them) and chat ops would be qualified to serve, along with others. When a case was filed, the Jarl of Justice or I would randomly select/appoint two people from this pool to serve as the other jurors in the arbitration committee for the case, removing any selections that are judged to have a conflict of interest. We would probably use Zaphyr to make the random selections, since it's reasonably safe from any accusations of tampering to get a certain result. Once the jury was selected for the arbitration committee, the trial would begin according to the procedures set out by the Ministry of Justice to its final conclusion, in line with the Code of Laws as passed by the Storting.

This is a simplified version of what the Administration of Justice Amendment Act provided for, upholding the elements I feel are important to a just and efficient court system...a non-standing judiciary, random selection of jurors for each case, and potential jurors being selected based on criteria of knowledge and experience. That is what the judicial system would look under this system, and now you can decide whether this is something you would want or not.

I think that'd be a fine plan.

Yep, sounds good to me.

I agree with the others, this plan sounds good.

-snip-

you forgot my judicial proposal as well.  That was also feasible.

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So essentially you are giving the monarch the power to do what the amendment would have done, but now also give him the power to throw anything to the wind that he(or a future monarch) wants?

I'm sorry but I have to say no to this. I think this is a rather bad idea that essentially goes in a round-about way to setup the system that was proposed...so I must ask, what the fuck.

So you are willing to trust the monarch to put together the same system that was proposed in the AJA(With the exception of jurors can be anyone), but also extend the ability to allow the monarch to practically decide anything about a case?

Again what the fuck? To be honest I see no reason, at least logical to me, that this would be a good idea, now or in the future. If you say you trust the monarch more but allow a system to be put in place that was almost the same as what another amendment would have done, then I wonder why the amendment was voted against in the first place.

So essentially you are giving the monarch the power to do what the amendment would have done, but now also give him the power to throw anything to the wind that he(or a future monarch) wants?

I'm sorry but I have to say no to this. I think this is a rather bad idea that essentially goes in a round-about way to setup the system that was proposed...so I must ask, what the fuck.

So you are willing to trust the monarch to put together the same system that was proposed in the AJA(With the exception of jurors can be anyone), but also extend the ability to allow the monarch to practically decide anything about a case?

Again what the fuck? To be honest I see no reason, at least logical to me, that this would be a good idea, now or in the future. If you say you trust the monarch more but allow a system to be put in place that was almost the same as what another amendment would have done, then I wonder why the amendment was voted against in the first place.

^ +1

I'm with Chanku on this.

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Because it allows the monarch to say lol fuck that and change the system as necessary in different situations. Also vesting power in the monarch. It's a good thing... I do truly fail to see what problems you two honestly have.

Because it allows the monarch to say lol fuck that and change the system as necessary in different situations. Also vesting power in the monarch. It's a good thing... I do truly fail to see what problems you two honestly have.

I oppose it because it makes the monarch practically untouchable. For example he could change procedure to force cases against him to not be accepted, and not only that but the Jarl could also be dismissed for accepting a case against the monarch.

Essentially you are removing all accountability from an already less-than accountable person/position.

You also open up the path that puts limits on the legislation that the storting can produce, in which is already rather limited by saying that Judicial Procedures are not a form of law(which they currently are), but are instead executive powers, thus meaning that the Storting can't fix any errors, and the Monarch can refuse to fix them..

Now while I do realize that Wintermoot probably won't do this, but it does lead up a possibility for future Monarchs. While it may work at this moment, what about when wintermoot gives up Monarch? Someone could easily get it and do this.

We also have the issue with Sham-trails that could be forced by the Monarch(again not talking about Wintermoot in particular) that is designed to remove an unpopular person(or someone the Monarch doesn't like/has a low regional approval rating) thus also violating the Fundamental Laws, and since it's part of the executive, the people aren't really accountable, in any form, to the citizenry, but instead only accountable to the Monarch.

In reality this system is open for a LOT of abuse and creates an issue where, unlike previous systems which were at least somewhat accountable to the citizenry(our current system with has Storting members that could be removed, or the proposed system which cases could be brought against a judge should they have accepted a bribe) and moves it to the Monarch, where the Monarch influences all of the outcomes due to the fact that they(the Jarl) could be threatened with dismissal if they do something that the monarch dislikes in which the Monarch could effectively undo that.

Although if we are to do this, I would prefer it if the Jarl appointed was to be confirmed by the Storting, and any changes would have to be approved as well. Although keep in mind this would only apply to this Position and no others.

I would also support a bit more of a hybrid-system in which the Judicial is shared between the Monarch and the Storting collectively.

The thing you're really not getting is that the monarch can already do those things...
We live in a monarchy... If Wintermoot wanted to at this moment he could dismiss me from the region, edit all of my posts to say "mushroom", ban me from the irc channel, and (for good measure) ban me from the steam group he could. Just because he wanted to... He could trim the entire region to be just people who talk and agree with him. Because we live in a monarchy. There is no way to hold the monarch truly accountable. There's never a system like that. By entrusting the law to a different party we are actually doing nothing. At best it's a figurehead group that the monarch is simply allowing to exist... Like that's the reality of living in a monarchy. That's what you and I both accepted upon moving here.
Also, I highly doubt this region will be able to exist, in the same way, under any other monarch except for Wintermoot or someone very like him. I choose to legislate and plan as if that statement was assuredly true.