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Perhaps (though from my perspective, it still feels like you're ultimately making the decisions, even if you're taking consensus into account as it appears from your perspective and following it), but I think there's still something fundamentally different to have the Monarch determining the specific rules as opposed to the people. With how low-stakes this is I think it's fair to trade some efficiency for symbolism.

Would it be satisfactory if he made this some sort of referendum instead where people can vote on whether whatever selection criteria we go with is the one to decide the Chancellor?

My preference stems out of a desire to see the Landsraad governing itself, so I wouldn't really prefer a separate referendum.

@Michi: Do you know if they've had any issues with toxicity or drama over using a challenge system?

As far as I know, they have not.  Only Enlightened can challenge them (and Enlightened are the people that can vote on legislative matters), and it's an interesting process to even get there (the person wanting to join finds one of the department heads to sponsor their Bodhi, which is basically a consistent 3-7 day Q&A from other Enlightened as well as the department heads, mods, and admin, followed by a task based on what the other ranks learn from you from that Q&A) to make sure you're serious on wanting to be involved with the region...so it actually kinda weeds out the people that would more likely be toxic or dramatic in that capacity.

I've honestly wondered if we should have a similar process here, kind of a hybrid OA to where people wanting to be part of it would basically be vetted on their seriousness on wanting to join in, and once they were in they'd be part of the legislative body until they left the region.

@taulover: I'm afraid that I don't understand your perspective. The discussion isn't going to be any different either way, the end solution probably isn't going to be any different either way, and if you want the Landsraad to truly govern itself asap I think it's best to have this discussion now so we can elect a Chancellor asap rather than going with someone I appoint.

@Michi: That's an intriguing system...it raises the question if whether people should be able to join the Landsraad immediately upon becoming a Citizen. If the tasks are related to contributing to the community, that might definitely be a boost too...although we would have to be careful for the experience not to be overwhelming for those who are new and still learning how to interact with us.

@Michi: Do you know if they've had any issues with toxicity or drama over using a challenge system?

As far as I know, they have not.  Only Enlightened can challenge them (and Enlightened are the people that can vote on legislative matters), and it's an interesting process to even get there (the person wanting to join finds one of the department heads to sponsor their Bodhi, which is basically a consistent 3-7 day Q&A from other Enlightened as well as the department heads, mods, and admin, followed by a task based on what the other ranks learn from you from that Q&A) to make sure you're serious on wanting to be involved with the region...so it actually kinda weeds out the people that would more likely be toxic or dramatic in that capacity.

I've honestly wondered if we should have a similar process here, kind of a hybrid OA to where people wanting to be part of it would basically be vetted on their seriousness on wanting to join in, and once they were in they'd be part of the legislative body until they left the region.

This reminds me of the old system in Aura Hyperia / New Hyperion. Patricians went through a thorough vetting and interview process, and only Patricians participated in the Body Republic / Imperial Senate.

It's a neat system, but I feel like it would run counter to the very open culture here at Wintreath.

@taulover: I'm afraid that I don't understand your perspective. The discussion isn't going to be any different either way, the end solution probably isn't going to be any different either way, and if you want the Landsraad to truly govern itself asap I think it's best to have this discussion now so we can elect a Chancellor asap rather than going with someone I appoint.

That's a fair point. I thought the symbolism of the Landsraad figuring out its own initial procedural rules would be neat, but I suppose that having self-leadership from the start may be a good option also.

@taulover: I'm afraid that I don't understand your perspective. The discussion isn't going to be any different either way, the end solution probably isn't going to be any different either way, and if you want the Landsraad to truly govern itself asap I think it's best to have this discussion now so we can elect a Chancellor asap rather than going with someone I appoint.

@Michi: That's an intriguing system...it raises the question if whether people should be able to join the Landsraad immediately upon becoming a Citizen. If the tasks are related to contributing to the community, that might definitely be a boost too...although we would have to be careful for the experience not to be overwhelming for those who are new and still learning how to interact with us.

Actually, that's normally the reason they highly encourage people to wait at least a few months before wanting to go through the process.  They want people to really get to know the region and its members before taking the plunge of getting seriously involved in that way...and they normally encourage people to get involved with one or more of the areas (cultural, RP, regional newspaper, WA, Foreign Affairs, Welcoming crew, etc) to get to know the region if their goal is to become Enlightened.

@Michi: Do you know if they've had any issues with toxicity or drama over using a challenge system?

As far as I know, they have not.  Only Enlightened can challenge them (and Enlightened are the people that can vote on legislative matters), and it's an interesting process to even get there (the person wanting to join finds one of the department heads to sponsor their Bodhi, which is basically a consistent 3-7 day Q&A from other Enlightened as well as the department heads, mods, and admin, followed by a task based on what the other ranks learn from you from that Q&A) to make sure you're serious on wanting to be involved with the region...so it actually kinda weeds out the people that would more likely be toxic or dramatic in that capacity.

I've honestly wondered if we should have a similar process here, kind of a hybrid OA to where people wanting to be part of it would basically be vetted on their seriousness on wanting to join in, and once they were in they'd be part of the legislative body until they left the region.

This reminds me of the old system in Aura Hyperia / New Hyperion. Patricians went through a thorough vetting and interview process, and only Patricians participated in the Body Republic / Imperial Senate.

It's a neat system, but I feel like it would run counter to the very open culture here at Wintreath.

@taulover: I'm afraid that I don't understand your perspective. The discussion isn't going to be any different either way, the end solution probably isn't going to be any different either way, and if you want the Landsraad to truly govern itself asap I think it's best to have this discussion now so we can elect a Chancellor asap rather than going with someone I appoint.

That's a fair point. I thought the symbolism of the Landsraad figuring out its own initial procedural rules would be neat, but I suppose that having self-leadership from the start may be a good option also.

Anyone can be enlightened though, and the tasks are usually pretty simple from hosting a game that you're passionate about, to rating your favorite tea that you enjoy.  It's 100% dependent on what they decide on your Q&A, and I've rarely seen anyone get similar tasks.

Mine was hosting a game night, which I used their rotating channel to host a day of Choose your Own Adventure.

The only ones they've ever denied have been people that couldn't go through with their given task since they didn't have time (and they'll let you drag it out for months and usually only wait for the applicant to end it), so it's usually more about testing how seriously the applicant is...as opposed to guaging any actual qualifications.

On one hand, we know from experience that making prospective Citizens write just a few posts before applying drastically cut the number of apps. We don't know how active the Landsraad will normally be, but the case could be made that requirements could become barriers to the legislature's activity and growth. Are people going to want to jump through hoops to take part in a legislature with limited powers?

On the other hand, we desperately need to build a culture that encourages people to contribute to the community. There's never been more than a few people who have done things like ran game nights, hosted Werewolf games, or even recruited at any one time. Those that do often end up getting burned out, which leads to inactivity when there's nobody else to take up the banner. I imagine this could give people the push they need to get involved as a leader or contributor in some part of the community, maybe even in areas we've never even thought of or considered. Even if it just sparked some discussions on the forums, that would be a contribution...if you remember, Gabrielle's idea to get people talking on the forums was promising, although unfortunately she never posted more than the one topic.

You could even argue that Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion's system was a success, in that the people who survived it were capable, responsible, dedicated people with a work ethic that greatly enriched Wintreath in the years following the near-merger of our communities. The question is, can something like that be applied to a larger community in a way that doesn't come off as overwhelming to new members.

But back on the topic at hand, I will write up a draft election/challenge hybrid system soon and post it here for consideration. Hopefully we can have a Chancellor in the next few weeks and finally get this thing properly started.

Here's my first shot at a procedure for electing a Chancellor.

The way it would work is that any member of the Landsraad can challenge the incumbent (except during certain times as defined below), and if it gathers enough support it would trigger an election for the position. In addition, an election would automatically be triggered if there hasn't been one in the previous 3 months so you don't have cases where a Chancellor goes a long time without facing an election.

I personally like the idea of regular elections being based on when the last election was, because it eliminates the awkward period in the last system where there may have been a need to recall the Speaker but it was too close to elections to do so and in a way it would be more efficient...why should the incumbent have to win a second regular election soon after winning a challenge election? On the other hand, it would require us to keep track of when elections are, since they wouldn't be on a specific day. I'm interested to see if people like this idea or would rather have regular elections at the beginning of every third month like Thane elections are.

Whatever process we ultimately decide on, I've penciled in our first Chancellor elections to begin on May 1st so we would have an elected Chancellor in place on May 14th...if that's not feasible we can always push it back, but I think it's a good starting point to aim for.

Selection of the Chancellor
5) Elections for Chancellor shall begin three (3) months after previous election, which shall consist of a one (1) week period for candidates to stand for election followed by a one (1) week voting period. All members of the Landsraad shell be eligible to vote in Chancellor elections. The candidate with the most votes at the end of the election period shall be Chancellor.
   a) Initial elections for Chancellor shall begin on May 1st, 2021.

Challenges to the Chancellor
6) Any member of the Landsraad may announce a challenge to the incumbent Chancellor by creating a new topic in the Landsraad forum with the announcement. Once announced, the challenge shall require the support of at least five other members of the Landsraad within one (1) week. Challenges that do not receive the required number of supporters within that time shall be considered failed.
   a) Challenges may not be made if the incumbent has not yet been in office for at least two (2) weeks, there has been a failed challenge against the incumbent in the previous two (2) weeks, or if elections for Chancellor would have already began by the end of the challenge period.

7) An election for Chancellor shall begin once the required number of supporters have backed the challenge, which shall consist of the same standing, voting period, and election method as defined in Section 5. The member who announced the challenge and the incumbent shall automatically be placed on the ballot, unless the incumbent has explicitly withdrawn from the election. Other candidates may stand for election during the standing period.

I like this idea. We should probably implement a preferential voting system to prevent runoff elections due to ties, though, since they always have lower turnout and just eat into the term.

That's a good idea! I've updated the draft to include such a system.

Selection of the Chancellor
5) Elections for Chancellor shall begin three (3) months after previous election, which shall consist of a one (1) week period for candidates to stand for election followed by a one (1) week voting period. All members of the Landsraad shall be eligible to vote in Chancellor elections.
  a) Elections will follow an instant-runoff voting system, where voters rank candidates in order of preference. In the event that no candidate receives a majority of the votes, the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated and their voters' next highest rank choice is applied, with the process repeating until a candidate has a majority of the votes.
  b) If there is only one candidate for election, that candidate shall win by default without a vote.
  c) Initial elections for Chancellor shall begin on May 1st, 2021.

Challenges to the Chancellor
6) Any member of the Landsraad may announce a challenge to the incumbent Chancellor by creating a new topic in the Landsraad forum with the announcement. Once announced, the challenge shall require the support of at least five other members of the Landsraad within one (1) week. Challenges that do not receive the required number of supporters within that time shall be considered failed.
  a) Challenges may not be made if the incumbent has not yet been in office for at least two (2) weeks, there has been a failed challenge against the incumbent in the previous two (2) weeks, or if elections for Chancellor would have already began by the end of the challenge period.

7) An election for Chancellor shall begin once the required number of supporters have backed the challenge, which shall consist of the same standing, voting period, and election method as defined in Section 5. The member who announced the challenge and the incumbent shall automatically be placed on the ballot, unless the incumbent has explicitly withdrawn from the election. Other candidates may stand for election during the standing period.

If there no other suggestions, I will finalize these rules tomorrow.

The rules have been finalized, and nominations for our first Chancellor will begin on May 1st!

The reformation of our legislature and laws is coming to an end, and with it my direct role in leading the process of change. Hopefully the Landsraad will be a smashing success and we won't need another reformation period, so I wanted to thank everyone that participated in the building of the law codex, the modernization of the laws, and the drafting of the rules for the selection of Chancellor. It wouldn't have been as thorough a process without your help, and it feels great to be crossing the finish line with nicer things than we had at the starting line.