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[DISCUSSION] Citizeship and Demonym "Shall Eradication" Act
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Katie
  • Former Citizen
  • The Cheese
  • Quote
    Title
    1. This act is to be cited as the Citizenship and Demonym Shall Eradication Act

    Amendments
    2. Section 1, Subsection 1 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    This act shall be cited as the Citizenship and Demonym Act.
    3. Section 2, Subsection 3 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Monarch has the authority to revoke Citizenship from any person, so long as the Monarch makes a public announcement explaining the reasons for doing so. Persons whose Citizenship has been revoked by the Monarch may appeal the decision to the Storting, which can restore Citizenship by a majority vote of both chambers.
    4. Section 2, Subsection 4 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Storting has the authority to revoke Citizenship from any person with a majority vote of both chambers, so long as the legislation revoking the Citizenship contains the reasons for doing so. Persons whose Citizenship has been revoked by the Storting may appeal the decision to the Monarch, who can restore Citizenship by decree.
    5. Section 2, Subsection 5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Monarch of Wintreath has the authority to declare any person as persona non grata. Any person declared persona non grata will be denied citizenship, ambassadorship, or any other privileges by the government of Wintreath.
    6. Section 2, Subsection 6 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Monarch, or any subordinate official appointed by the Monarch, has the authority to grant or deny citizenship to any person who applies.
    7. Section 3, Subsection 1 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Storting has the authority to recognize any previous or current Citizen as a Paragon of Wintreath if it feels the individual has been
    an essential member of the regional community, has performed an invaluable service to the region, and/or otherwise embodies the principles, values, culture, or honour of the region.
    8. Section 3, Subsection 2 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    Paragons are exempt from the requirements of Section 2 of this Act and shall enjoy all the rights and privileges of Citizenship.
    9. Section 3, Subsection 3 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The Storting has the authority to revoke recognition of Paragon status.
    10. Section 4, Subsection 1 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    The official demonym of Wintreath is Wintrean.
    11. Section 5, Subsection 1 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act is amended to read as follows:
    Quote
    Upon passage of the legislation, and in accordance with Decree 001: Section 6, Decree 001 is considered Void.
    I introduce this act into the Underhusen, y'all know the drill by now.

    @Wuufu
    @Wintermoot
    @Aragonn
    @Cinciri
    @trader

    For the Overhusen's convenience.
    Lady Katherine Ostergaard
    Countess of Osterfell, Matriarch of the Noble House of Ostergaard


    Resumé
    Contact
    Discord: Katie#3933

    Wintreath
      • Fmr. Thane of WA Affairs
      • Fmr. Jarl of Foreign Affairs
      • Fmr. Skrifa in the 29th-34th & 36th Sessions of the Underhusen
      • Fmr. Officer of Information in the 29th-34th Sessions of the Underhusen
      • Fmr. Speaker Pro Tempore in the 33rd Underhusen
      • Fmr. Thane of Integration
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    • Fmr. Councillor of World Assembly Affairs in Cynosure
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    Katie
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    taulover
  • Regional Stability Squad
  • Seeker of Knowledge
  • Could @Chanku explain specifically what the issue is with shall in the legal sense?
    Résumé
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 8 April 2015 - present
    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    RP Guild Councillor: 9 February 2016 - 6 March 2018
    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
    Skrifa of the 19th Underhusen: 7 December 2016 - 9 February 2017
    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
    Ambassador to the Versutian Federation: 18 August 2017 - 22 March 2018
    Thane of Integration: 29 September 2017 - 7 March 2018
    Speaker of the 24th Underhusen: 10 October 2017 - 7 December 2017
    October 2017 Wintreath's Finest: 4 November 2017
    Speaker pro tempore of the 25th Underhusen: 9 December 2017 - 7 February 2018
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    February 2018 Wintreath's Finest: 5 March 2018
    Thane of Embassy Dispatches / Foreign Releases and Information / Foreign Dispatches: 7 March 2018 - 15 March 2020
    Speaker of the 28th Underhusen: 10 June 2018 - 7 August 2018
    Second Patriarch of the Noble House of Valeria: 10 October 2018 - present
    Arena Game 6 Host: 28 December 2018 - 9 March 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 29 January 2019 - 12 February 2019
    Speaker of the 32nd Underhusen: 12 February 2019 - 8 April 2019
    March 2019 Wintreath's Finest: 4 April 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 12 April 2019 - 23 October 2020
    Commendation of Wintreath: 24 September 2020
    Peer of the Overhusen: 9 December 2020 - 8 February 2021
    Vice Chancellor of the Landsraad: 26 May 2021 - 15 September 2022
    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
    Regional Stability Squad: 28 February 2023 - present
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    Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion:
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    Other positions: Hyperian Guardsman, Hyperian Marine (Rank: Scout)
    taulover
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    Katie
  • Former Citizen
  • The Cheese
  • @taulover I don’t know if this is a legal sense, but I consider “shall” to be a word used when someone “should and will” do something. It’s different from something one “can” do but isn’t required.
    Lady Katherine Ostergaard
    Countess of Osterfell, Matriarch of the Noble House of Ostergaard


    Resumé
    Contact
    Discord: Katie#3933

    Wintreath
      • Fmr. Thane of WA Affairs
      • Fmr. Jarl of Foreign Affairs
      • Fmr. Skrifa in the 29th-34th & 36th Sessions of the Underhusen
      • Fmr. Officer of Information in the 29th-34th Sessions of the Underhusen
      • Fmr. Speaker Pro Tempore in the 33rd Underhusen
      • Fmr. Thane of Integration
      • Fmr. Thane of Embassies

    Other
    • Fmr. Councillor of World Assembly Affairs in Cynosure
    • Fmr. Outreach Officer of the Rejected Realms
    • Fmr. Kaetunet of the 1st House of Commons of the Holy Reich of Bunicken
    • Fmr. Grand Councillor in Grand Central
    • Fmr. Local Councillor in the South Pacific
    Katie
    • The Cheese
    • Posts: 730
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    • hoh
    • Former Citizen
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • Could @Chanku explain specifically what the issue is with shall in the legal sense?
    I've mentioned this before, but shall itself has many different meanings, which in a legal sense all are slightly different. As such the use of 'shall' is sometimes used to mean something mandatory or something non-mandatory ("must" vs "can"/"may"). Lawsuits over the meaning of the word "shall" in a contract or law also occur with some frequency. As such it's better to avoid the use of 'shall', especially in legal documents. In Wintreath "shall" is used both in a "must" way and in a "can"/"may" way for example:
    Quote from: Citizenship and Demonym Act, Section 2, Subsection 6
    2.6 The Monarch, or any subordinate official appointed by the Monarch, shall have the authority to grant or deny citizenship to any person who applies.
    The use of "shall" in this section clearly means, "has the duty/authority to" and not "must have the authority to". Meanwhile in the Fundamental Laws there is this phrase:
    Quote from: Fundamental Laws, Article I, Section 7
    7. All legislation shall be initially introduced only in the Underhusen.
    "Shall" in this sentence is being used to mean, "must" however it can be read as, "may" as well, especially since "shall" is used in this way elsewhere in the document (and even the same article, such as Article I, Section 16)
    Quote from: Fundamental Laws, Article I, Section 16
    16. The Storting shall have the authority to issue advisory opinions on matters of constitutionality and legality to anyone whom the Storting has determined has standing to seek an advisory opinion.
    "Shall" this sentence means "may" in a way, in that it has the authority to do this.

    There is even a section that uses "shall" in both of these ways, which is Article I, Section 6
    Quote from: Fundamental Laws, Article I, Section 6
    6. The Monarch shall announce his or her appointments and reappointments to the Overhusen at the conclusion of elections for the Underhusen. The Monarch shall at the same time also appoint a Chairperson of the Overhusen, who shall execute the procedural rules established by the Overhusen. In the event of a vacancy, the Monarch shall have the authority to appoint a new Peer to fill the vacancy.
    The first use of "shall" is more-so like the usage of "must" or "will", the next use of "shall" is similar as well, in addition to the third use. The final use however is not the same, it can say the monarch "must" fill the vacancy, but instead it reads more like the monarch CAN fill the vacancy, if they so chose, but they do have the authority to appoint one.

    As such, it just becomes confusing and in Wintrean Law it's been used like in RL law, which is not that good, so "shall" has become a problematic word for legal usage, for more information you can read This Plain Language document from the US government suggesting to avoid the use of shall in legal documents
    1 person likes this post: taulover
    See you later space cowboy.
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    Advisor to the Riksråd
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    Doc
  • Citizen
  • Shall is universally used in a 'will' way in all the cases above, because in the 'may' sense of the words, they are always 'shall have the authority to' - they will have the authority to do something, but may choose to or not to do those things at their discretion.
    So I don't see the argument for it.
    2 people like this post: taulover, Aragonn
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    Chanku
  • Citizen
  • Shall is universally used in a 'will' way in all the cases above, because in the 'may' sense of the words, they are always 'shall have the authority to' - they will have the authority to do something, but may choose to or not to do those things at their discretion.
    So I don't see the argument for it.
    But the phrase, "Will have the authority to", brings up the question of, well WHEN will they have the authority to do so? Will obviously means that they can do the action in the future, but not when.

    Additionally, I provided a link that you should probably read as it goes into more detail.
    1 person likes this post: taulover
    See you later space cowboy.
    Old Signature

     
    Current Positions in Wintreath
    Matriarch of House Kaizer
    Speaker of the 29th Underhusen
    Advisor to the Riksråd
    Positions I've held
    Riksrad(1st Jarl of Information, 3rd Jarl of Foreign Affairs, 2nd Jarl of Defense)
    Member of the WHR
    Speaker of the Underhusen (3rd)
    Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen (1st)
    Underhusen Member (1st-3rd)
    Member of the 5th Overhusen
    Chairman of the 5th Overhusen
    6th Underhusen
    Speaker of the 6th Underhusen
    Mandate Holder for Jarl of Defense
    Member of the 8th Storting (Underhusen)
    Royalty of Wintreath
    Ambassador for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
    Underhusen Terms I've been a part of
    1st Underhusen
    2nd Underhusen
    3rd Underhusen
    6th Underhusen
    8th Underhusen
    Overhusen Terms I've been a part of
    5th Overhusen
    Families I've been a part of
    Kaizer - Matriarch (REFORMED)
    Kestar - Child of Wintermoot (REMOVED)
    Chanku
     
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