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American Gun Control Debate
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Seroim
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  • The problem with the United States and gun violence isn't as much legislative as it is cultural.

    It is relatively easy to own a gun in Canada. It might in fact be easier than in some US states. You might be surprised to know that Canada also has very high gun ownership rate per capita and yet we neither have a constitutional right to bear arms or a gun violence problem.

    Of course, the United States is still a clear outlier as there are more privately-registered guns than there are people. I would submit that this is because Americans have a perverse fascination towards weapons. Not many Canadians have a gun in every room or sleep with one in their bedroom. It's illegal to do so as it would violate storage laws, but I suppose some people don't care about that.

    But in the US, I don't think it's that uncommon. I don't think it's uncommon either to own a dozen guns. Apparently 30% of Americans personally own guns, which isn't that much higher than Canada's 17%. So it would look like the reason why there are so many firearms in the United States is because some people own a lot of them.

    There are two reasons to own 20 guns. You're a hobbyist, or you're paranoid. I think the two often intersect. America, after all, is the land of conspiracy theories. Everyone's up to something nefarious, everyone has hidden motives, and it is your duty to remain ever vigilant in the face of those who would take your freedom away from you. Personally, I find this mindset contagious. I don't like visiting the United States because I feel the paranoid vibe. It makes me want to pack heat too.

    I think that if more stringent gun control laws were enacted, people who want to own 20 guns would do the paperwork to own 20 guns. If they want to conceal carry and it's banned, they'll do it anyway and risk the penalty. A gun with a 5 rounds magazine limit still has 5 rounds to shoot; that can still be 5 dead people. As for criminals, they'd still own guns - they're criminals.
    1 person likes this post: Michi
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    Doc
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  • I'm of the opinion that, all things considered, criminals don't want to have guns. They'd much rather commit any crimes with the bare minimum of an additional force multiplier necessary - 'robbery' carries a much shorter term than 'armed robbery', so to minimize risk to yourself, your best case scenario, if you know the other guy is unarmed, is to walk in with a knife or a baseball bat or something, not an AK-47.
    The only reason criminals feel the need to have a gun is because there's a pretty good chance the guy they're attacking has a gun too. And if that's the case, well, they don't need to worry about the potential risk of getting caught - they need to worry about being shot by the guy they're trying to rob.
    And if we reduce the amount of overall weapons, it'll change that risk-reward calculation significantly - sure, criminals will still 'be able' to get guns, but because there isn't that imperative to have them in order to be able to carry out crimes in the first place, they are much less likely to use them because if they're caught with them, the legal consequences are so much greater. The guys robbing banks or whatever will still have their manifestly illegal guns, but 'rando mugger' will probably have a knife or a piece of pipe instead of a gun - and that's less likely to wind up with someone dead in an alleyway.
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    Arenado
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  • Saying 'we shouldn't do anything because anything we do will be ineffective' isn't what we should be doing, though. This is an area where there has been a serious policy shortfall, and just sitting on our hands wringing them saying 'but it'll be ineffective' does nothing when something very clearly needs to be done.
    I'd rather we did 20 different ineffective things, and tossed them out and did new things when it was clear that these didn't work (or kept them if it did work), than just sat on our hands and vacillated because the possible remedial effect was unclear.
    Doing nothing when people are getting killed due to inaction is the worst possible remedy possible, because all it does is say 'look, we're gonna pretend to give a shit, but we don't actually care about how many people get killed because it's much more important that we get to play with guns'.

    What? Seriously? Do something that will not work over nothing? You cannot be serious. First, no one wants to do nothing. There are ways that will work in reducing gun violence, expanding background check, things like Project Exile and the FACE 5 program that would work in reducing gun violence that people are advocating for. No one wants to do nothing. They just would not want to do something that would trample on peoples rights and do something that will not work.

    Let me put your argument of 'do something that will not work over nothing", something I find rather inaccurate and divorced from reality, into context. There are racists now so lets go ahead and start banning all sorts of speech, trampling on the First Amendment, despite the fact that doing so would not make racism go away and is therefore ineffective because doing something that will not work is better than thinking through your options.

    Just doing something because doing something, anything, is better than nothing, regardless of the effectiveness and the effect of what you call for, is foolish, shortsighted and unscientific.

    I'm of the opinion that, all things considered, criminals don't want to have guns. They'd much rather commit any crimes with the bare minimum of an additional force multiplier necessary - 'robbery' carries a much shorter term than 'armed robbery', so to minimize risk to yourself, your best case scenario, if you know the other guy is unarmed, is to walk in with a knife or a baseball bat or something, not an AK-47.
    The only reason criminals feel the need to have a gun is because there's a pretty good chance the guy they're attacking has a gun too. And if that's the case, well, they don't need to worry about the potential risk of getting caught - they need to worry about being shot by the guy they're trying to rob.
    And if we reduce the amount of overall weapons, it'll change that risk-reward calculation significantly - sure, criminals will still 'be able' to get guns, but because there isn't that imperative to have them in order to be able to carry out crimes in the first place, they are much less likely to use them because if they're caught with them, the legal consequences are so much greater. The guys robbing banks or whatever will still have their manifestly illegal guns, but 'rando mugger' will probably have a knife or a piece of pipe instead of a gun - and that's less likely to wind up with someone dead in an alleyway.

    And this expert opinion is backed up with what facts? I'm no expert, I will say, but there is a rather large hole in your opinion. Rando mugger dude, yes, is unlikely to have a gun (mostly because they could not afford it) but the ones who do have guns are gang members, by and large. Gang related crimes are the ones with the highest chance of a gun getting involved.

    And just a question, if Rando mugger dude walked into your store with a knife or down the street and held you up, what is the most effective weapon possible to either get him to back down or to defend yourself? Oh yeah, its a gun.
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  • I beg to differ. The NRA would love it if America did nothing. And there's a lot of money going to congressmen and senators to try and make doing nothing of consequence not only the response to the current outcry, but has been doing that since Columbine.
    The moment Columbine happened, that should have been the impetus for a massive crackdown. Instead, we've continued to let mass shootings, whether at schools or otherwise, continue in this country, because by god we have to have guns. Frankly, I'm astonished we're even making any progress right now, because after Sandy Hook I was convinced that this country decided that guns were more important than 8-year-olds, and the only possible thing that might bring about gun control would be a gunman going to a gynecologist and systematically shooting fetuses in their mother's wombs, because by god wouldn't that be a morton's fork for the religious right, having to pick between fetuses and guns.

    As for the hole in my argument - random mugger dude fairly routinely has gun, in fact. Of the last 5 alerts I've gotten from my campus security about muggings, 4 have involved 2-4 guys, 1-2 firearms apiece, and said people being mid-late teens - not exactly the age where you've got tons of money to throw around for guns, nor were they in gangs. The fifth was a homeless dude with a knife, but considering the turnaround time on the guy getting his wallet back was 15 minutes, I'm sort of disinclined to count that.
    But, shoot, since there's doubt about my opinion, let's look at several countries where gun ownership is not expected, since, after all, criminals can magically get guns whenever they feel like it. Singapore, say, has no gun problem to speak of - the last time I remember hearing about a gun killing was that One-Eyed Dragon thing a decade or so back. Japan, with a heavy organized crime element - mostly don't use guns, because of fear of legal consequences of getting caught with a firearm. Hong Kong, also heavy organized crime element - mostly no guns, again because of fear of legal consequences of getting caught with a firearm. And since it is specifically gang violence that we fear will escalate with firearms, gotta say, restricting firearm usage is probably gonna do wonders for that.

    EDIT: Okay so on reflection after actually getting some sleep, I'd like to highlight: by no means do I think that the government should do actively bad policy in a knee-jerk reaction. But I do think that where there's policy that there might be some debate about whether it's potentially useful or not, at this juncture the human cost of doing nothing is sufficiently high that it is better to at least attempt to apply it, and if it's garbage, let it die in 5 or 10 years, or whatever time period is set for any ban (e.g. the old 'assault weapons ban').
    1 person likes this post: Aethelia
    « Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 08:37:49 PM by Doc »
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    AmericaBilliards
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  • Uhh I'm sure there's some very intelligent arguments and counter arguments in this thread that I look forward to reading but I just want to be an idiot. I think it's interesting that I have to go through more hoops to own a cat then I do to own a gun in some states.

    4 people like this post: Gerrick, Red Mones, Michi, Mathyland
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