Wintreath Regional Community
The Frozen Village of Fourneshore - Chats and Discussions => Winter Square - Governance => Topic started by: Marzipan on February 24, 2023, 04:06:08 AM
-
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1841726
-
With respect to all involved, I simply fail to see why this spiraled out the way it did. Thinking that furries are discriminated against to the same extent as Jews is a really bad opinion not backed up by any fact, but it's still an opinion. I also don't see how it's far-right, unless that is referring to completely separate context.
-
With respect to all involved, I simply fail to see why this spiraled out the way it did. Thinking that furries are discriminated against to the same extent as Jews is a really bad opinion not backed up by any fact, but it's still an opinion. I also don't see how it's far-right, unless that is referring to completely separate context.
Also, according to Michi, that was not even an opinion they had. It was never said that they were equal. I see how there was a misunderstanding, but both sides dealt with it way too aggressively. That's how it spiraled out the way it did. The lack of ability to calm down a situation and talk things out.
-
Unfortunately that was never in the cards. Had I been directly approached about it from the person who was upset about it, it could have gone different. Unfortunately, what I instead got was a public callout and demands of an apology as well as being demeaned and called immature for my response which actually I did apologize twice (once for how they read my post, the second for how it was interpreted), an argument over optics on something I didn't even actually say, and more demands for an apology via an indirect DM through Wintermoot from someone else. Not once during that entire time did the offended party reach out to me directly to talk it through versus having other folks do it for them or making the forum posts that they did...even accusing me at one point of closing one of the threads until Moot had to explain that it was a decision of the Ops, which I wasn't even around for that discussion (I was at work at the time iirc).
So honestly, it was never going to work. The only thing that would have been accepted would have been me bending over backwards and apologizing for having an opinion that they misinterpreted, as well as being reprimanded by Wintermoot...more than likely in the form of me losing my Discord Operator position.
-
Unfortunately that was never in the cards. Had I been directly approached about it from the person who was upset about it, it could have gone different. Unfortunately, what I instead got was a public callout and demands of an apology as well as being demeaned and called immature for my response which actually I did apologize twice (once for how they read my post, the second for how it was interpreted), an argument over optics on something I didn't even actually say, and more demands for an apology via an indirect DM through Wintermoot from someone else. Not once during that entire time did the offended party reach out to me directly to talk it through versus having other folks do it for them or making the forum posts that they did...even accusing me at one point of closing one of the threads until Moot had to explain that it was a decision of the Ops, which I wasn't even around for that discussion (I was at work at the time iirc).
So honestly, it was never going to work. The only thing that would have been accepted would have been me bending over backwards and apologizing for having an opinion that they misinterpreted, as well as being reprimanded by Wintermoot...more than likely in the form of me losing my Discord Operator position.
Also, trader's opinion was pretty clear when he singled you out as someone that should never have been an Op.
-
Also, trader's opinion was pretty clear when he singled you out as someone that should never have been an Op.
Except trader actually approved Michi as an op again at the same time Mars became an op.
Actually, now that I think about it, and I'll have to go back to the logs, but I think that was entirely trader's decision (not that I would have opposed it, of course).
-
Also, trader's opinion was pretty clear when he singled you out as someone that should never have been an Op.
Except trader actually approved Michi as an op again at the same time Mars became an op.
Actually, now that I think about it, and I'll have to go back to the logs, but I think that was entirely trader's decision (not that I would have opposed it, of course).
Yes, he pretty much welcomed me back and gave me powers before you popped in, though he'd probably argue that he knew you would have done it instantly if you were on.
(https://i.ibb.co/M5hk05M/Screenshot-20230224-122248-Discord.jpg)
-
I am probably gonna piss off a bunch of people on all sides of this debacle with this post, but I must do what I believe is right. Anyway
It is certainly true that Wintermoot has flaws as a leader, as does the rest of Wintreath's leadership past and present. Wintreath is led by people and all people are flawed. As I said last month, senior individuals in Wintreath have history of doing what at first was a minor misstep, but which then blows completely out of proportion because they refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing. As leaders, the impact of our actions often matter far more than the intent, and it can be hard to recognize that. Meanwhile, due to the Fundamental Attribution Error, others' intent and context are often ignored. I will point to two recent examples.
First, the circumstances leading to Neon Abigail's departure in August (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=7813.0). This conflict not only led to the departure of a valued member of our community, but severed what I understand to have been a close friendship. To recap, Abi had left the Discord server, which iirc is something she had a history of doing previously as well in order to cool off after heated discussions. She was still actively posting on the forums and participating in Werewolf, but Mars assumed for some reason that she was no longer hosting Summersend Spyfall, and thus unilaterally announced the cancellation of her game. Abi reacted confused, but instead of just apologizing, Mars doubled down and made excuses, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They also appeared to snarkily drag up private interpersonal relationship drama, which felt inappropriate given that Mars was acting in an official capacity as Thane. Michi then also shifted the blame to Abi by placing the onus on her to reach out to still confirm that she was still hosting. This was incredibly odd to me, and Abi expressed confusion as well when I reached out to her. From her perspective, she had left the Discord to deescalate tensions quietly, and instead, Mars had used her completely unrelated role as Thane of Culture to drag this out into the open. Even though I know it was not intended as such, it probably felt like she was being punished by someone in an unequal power dynamic for things done in a completely separate context.
Michi had locked the relevant forum thread (which I believe created a chilling effect on helping to resolve and learn from this drama - several people were using likes to show support for Abi, but nothing could be easily said), so I reached out Wintermoot privately, as I know he tends to prefer this. As he typically does, Wintermoot wholly defended Mars (and Michi), claiming that the validity of their actions was a matter of debate and that they certainly did not intend to do this. By contrast, Abi's feelings (which were very understandable given the context, imo) were being misinterpreted as as an accusation that Wintrean leadership was conspiring to punish her. Both publicly and privately, and both out of earshot and to her face, a narrative was being told that Abi was the one to blame, that she was the one being unreasonable, etc. Every consideration was being made to the intent of the leadership, but not to Abi's. Furthermore, by keeping so much of this in DMs, these narratives could form unchecked. As I said last month, we need to try to understand the other side and apologize for misunderstanding, instead of doubling down on our mistakes and misinterpretations. It's very human to do this - I certainly have in the past - but community leaders must strive to be better than that.
After that, I did not have the energy to speak out about my concerns publicly. I was moving to a new city and starting a full-time job for the first time - other things took priority, and I ended up taking a break from Wintreath. I'm sorry that we couldn't resolve this at the time - there was so much we should have learned as a community but did not.
Second, the furry bigotry incident. Much has already been said about this, so I will just share my two cents. I understand where Michi was coming from - furries are the target of bigotry, the most notable incident probably being a tear gas attack by a right-wing terrorist in 2014, which was largely laughed at by mainstream media and government authorities instead of taken seriously. However, we can sometimes misspeak and then be misinterpreted as a result. What we meant to say or do is different from what we actually said or did. Michi had a very reasonable opinion that was worded very poorly. Instead of recognizing this mistake, and apologizing for the accidental harm caused by his poor choice of wording, he doubled down based on what he intended to say. But again, impact is what matters here, not intent. Refusal to acknowledge this has led to repeated blowings-up of what should have been minor issues.
(I will also point out that during this incident, trader muted people who were airing their grievances on Discord, thereby further inflaming tensions.)
With all this said, I think it should be clear to anyone reading that the letter in the OP does resonate with me (even if the facts presented ore rather one-sided). As trader said in his letter, and as I said last month, all that people really needed in these situations was an acknowledgement of the mistake, an apology. Instead, the pattern has been one of doubling down and escalation. It's important to note though that these issues are not exclusive to any one person, but to many key community leaders in general, including those on both sides of this split. We are all human and we can only strive to be better than we were before.
Finally, I must say that the community's treatment of Wintermoot last night in #wintreath was completely unwarranted and uncalled for. The continuous mockery and public shaming was utterly unnecessary, unproductive, and self-serving.
I'll be around on the forums as always. Campfire has taken the Minecraft server with them, so I'll be over there too (Pond and I are finally building actual Nether infrastructure, complete with blue ice boat roads). I wish all community leaders the best of luck and hope that you can take the important lessons necessary from everything that has happened. Your jobs are not enviable but I hope they are fulfilling.
Edit: minor phrasing
-
What I disagree with is the idea that the onus is always on the misunderstood party. Svipjoth's tone and demeanour was hella aggressive, and was never going to do anything but make Michi defensive.
-
What @Laurentus says is true...in this case, I don't think the way that these grievances were presented helped matters, but at the same time I can't say with certainty that a less aggressive tone would have led to a different conclusion. For me personally, it didn't click until the Discord chat when things were the most heated.
As trader said in his letter, and as I said last month, all that people really needed in these situations was an acknowledgement of the mistake, an apology.
I can't speak for Michi, but for me personally until the Discord chat I thought Michi was being demanded to apologize for what he actually intended to say, which I just didn't understand at all. At this point I've read the forum topic multiple times, and the logs in the departure statement that supposedly show that the situation was clear to me, and I just don't see it. I don't see anything that clarifies that Svip was misunderstanding what Michi was saying and that it was that misunderstanding that Michi was being asked to apologize for. In the logs trader repeatedly says "a take that's not great around the edges", but I took that to also mean what Michi intended to say. And it's clear that's how I'm taking it when I said "I'm just flabergasted that somebody would go out of their way to comment on a post in a forum they don't have access to suggest that groups' discrimination isn't as valid as other groups."
So how can Michi acknowledge a mistake that nobody has made him aware of?
Even worse, the whole thing came off as a huge dogpile on Michi on the forums and then within the ops team itself, with what appears to me as a blanket insistence that Michi was in the wrong and should apologize without any context for what it was that he was actually supposed to be apologizing for. Even if he had apologized, it wouldn't have meant anything because what he would have thought he was apologizing for wouldn't have been the same as what Svip and others were actually offended about.
Maybe it was that obvious to most everybody else, but it wasn't obvious to me, and I don't think it was obvious to Michi either.
And maybe on our part it may have been as simple as asking Svip why she believed that comparing how bigots try to tie the actions of extremists to the main group was equating the actual discrimination that each group faces. Maybe that would have triggered something that would have made it more obvious that we weren't even on the same page. But it never came to mind, because at least to me it seemed obvious that she was offended by what Michi was actually intending to say. And I didn't understand why anyone would be offended by that, because it's just factually true.
But because the topic was already so hostile, and I didn't understand why what Michi said had created such hostility right off the bat, I decided to try to cool the temperature by reminding everybody that we're all friends here who have helped make Wintreath what it is, because I didn't want the situation to turn out exactly as it did: with people villainizing each other, hyping each other up in private spaces, and creating a lot of conflict and strife out of it. But you told me that was taken as condescending...it wasn't meant to be at all, and after the response that post got I just didn't know what to do, and I felt I had nobody to really consult with because by then everybody had taken Svip's side, even within the ops team. It seemed like the only advice I would get is that Michi should apologize, which still just didn't make sense to me.
I did apologize for the misunderstanding at the end of it, once I did realize that it was such...but I just don't understand where I could have realized it any sooner than I did. And again, I understand that most everybody else realized that, but I'm having trouble figuring out where it would have been obvious to me.
In hindsight, I feel like everybody involved has some responsibility here...the misunderstood party should make a good faith attempt to understand why the offended party is offended, and the offended party should clearly communicate what it is about what was said that offended them. But it seems like in this case everyone felt they were doing that, and it just didn't occur to anyone that things were being misunderstood until it was too late. I'm not sure how things could have been different and we realize that earlier on, and would honestly appreciate some help in figuring that out.
-
Bluntly, you don't get it because you're a white dude in a majority-white country, and not merely a majority-white country, but one which also happens to be the global hegemon that has been prosecuting a two-decade long 'war on terror' that is fundamentally a 'right to bomb brown people who we want the mineral rights of' (the other variety of brown people, 'ones who give us their mineral rights and consequently get us hella profits' is fundamentally okay in this equation).
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with being in that position. But it does mean that very often, you will not automatically understand what it is like from the perspective of the minority in question (which basically is something that anybody who's spent much time being a minority grasps pretty quickly).
For all that furries are consistently the victims of online abuse and vitriol for basically completely unfounded reasons, they are in no way demonized to nearly the same extent as Arab-Americans (or Pakistani-Americans, or for a completely unrelated bonus stemming purely from racist portrayals, Sikhs, because turbans are a fundamental part of their cultural/religious identity) were and have been for the last two solid decades of drone strikes in the Middle East. They are in no way victimized in the same way that the Palestinian people are, for the very real and factual evidence that there is no concerted effort by a state entity (i.e. one that has a lot of guns) to kill them en masse and deprive them of rights.
In essence, to make the equivalency Michi did is rather like walking up to someone with a gunshot wound and saying 'yeah, I know how that feels bro, I had a migraine yesterday'. They're comparable, right? I mean, in both cases the person feels pain! It shouldn't matter that the degree of pain differs, or that there are more lasting consequences to one than the other; pain is pain, discrimination and disparagement is discrimination and disparagement.
And if that analogy suddenly helps make things comprehensible to you, great! And the fact that the problem was not immediately comprehensible to you isn't the end of the world, but it does seem to be precisely what trader was going off about. And if it doesn't, then this split is for the best because the worldviews of the two sides seem to be fundamentally incompatible.
I don't really have a horse in this race. I left the community a while ago and only decided to start checking in when I first heard the rumblings about Something Having Happened. And I don't really intend on getting re-involved with Wintreath or involved with Campfire to any real extent. But when I saw the makeup of your Stability Squad in today's mass telegram, I felt the need to come in here and point out that a fundamental part of the problem is every single one of y'all is a white dude and part of the fundamental fucking problem being invisible to you is that you're all white (although for maximum fairness, Lau, at least, gets points for being a minority in his home country, which may help with grasping the issue, although it doesn't seem to have happened in this case) (Yes, I understand that two members of the RSS are gay, and that is a sexual minority, but the ways in which racial discrimination happen differ from anti-LGBT bigotry or gender discrimination or ageism or literally any other form of -ism and that's kind of why you want a diverse group of people in your team so they can catch shit before it becomes a problem).
But yeah, like, literally the only POC member of the Op team left over what is fundamentally an issue about perceptions/understandings of racial discrimination and you don't immediately respond by finding more POC perspectives for your transition team? Either find y'all some fresh blood (some with different perspectives that will call you on shit in private, and then listen to them from time to time, instead of making people air this shit out in public cause you won't listen otherwise), or accept that the community is going to become an increasingly incestuous, constantly shrinking one entirely composed of all the same old faces all the time.
Last point: stop being so conflict-averse. It is one thing to avoid serious conflict, but the need to constantly present that everybody is universally conflict-averse in all respects in the interests of civility just means that a bunch of minor disagreements, shoved into a closet and unaired, wind up festering until all that built-up pressure violently explodes into what is yet another fucking schism.
Minor fights about perspectives are inevitable if you truly are trying to create an inclusive community that encompasses all points of view - trying to wallpaper over them in the interests of 'oh we're just a big happy family here, we never fight' does not solve the underlying issues that a lack of a decent outlet for them causes. A big part of why I left in the first place was the constant sense of walking on eggshells because half the time when some good discussion would finally get going in CW it'd be muted; I joined some other servers towards the end of my tenure in Wintreath and the lack of a constant impetus towards some false obligation of civility has arguably led to a much greater sense of camaraderie, even if I catch a lot more shit for it.
I've had some rip-roaring arguments with Lau and still consider us chill because reasonable people can stridently disagree with each other about things and not hold a grudge about it, provided they're allowed to actually have those strident disagreements instead of plastering a smile on their face and pretending everybody is one big happy Stepford family.
-
@Doc: Thanks for taking the time to give your insights on what's going on. I know you're not really involved in anything at this point, and it was nice of you to take the time. I'm going to reflect on what you said and reply back later, maybe tonight if I have a chance.
But I did want to say that the current membership of the RSS is mostly based on who is still around, has knowledge of and insight what's been going on, and has the time to commit to the activity that this undertaking is going to require. We haven't reached out yet to everybody we would like to have, and some people that we've reached out to are still considering whether they'll have the time to commit. I wanted to make the announcement anyways though because I know there's a lot of uncertainty about Wintreath's future, and I wanted people to know that something is at least going on.
I'll see what I can do with your general suggestions with the people we still have in Wintreath, but if there's specific people you'd like to suggest I'm open to those suggestions as well.
-
Bluntly, you don't get it because you're a white dude in a majority-white country, and not merely a majority-white country, but one which also happens to be the global hegemon that has been prosecuting a two-decade long 'war on terror' that is fundamentally a 'right to bomb brown people who we want the mineral rights of' (the other variety of brown people, 'ones who give us their mineral rights and consequently get us hella profits' is fundamentally okay in this equation).
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with being in that position. But it does mean that very often, you will not automatically understand what it is like from the perspective of the minority in question (which basically is something that anybody who's spent much time being a minority grasps pretty quickly).
For all that furries are consistently the victims of online abuse and vitriol for basically completely unfounded reasons, they are in no way demonized to nearly the same extent as Arab-Americans (or Pakistani-Americans, or for a completely unrelated bonus stemming purely from racist portrayals, Sikhs, because turbans are a fundamental part of their cultural/religious identity) were and have been for the last two solid decades of drone strikes in the Middle East. They are in no way victimized in the same way that the Palestinian people are, for the very real and factual evidence that there is no concerted effort by a state entity (i.e. one that has a lot of guns) to kill them en masse and deprive them of rights.
In essence, to make the equivalency Michi did is rather like walking up to someone with a gunshot wound and saying 'yeah, I know how that feels bro, I had a migraine yesterday'. They're comparable, right? I mean, in both cases the person feels pain! It shouldn't matter that the degree of pain differs, or that there are more lasting consequences to one than the other; pain is pain, discrimination and disparagement is discrimination and disparagement.
And if that analogy suddenly helps make things comprehensible to you, great! And the fact that the problem was not immediately comprehensible to you isn't the end of the world, but it does seem to be precisely what trader was going off about. And if it doesn't, then this split is for the best because the worldviews of the two sides seem to be fundamentally incompatible.
I don't really have a horse in this race. I left the community a while ago and only decided to start checking in when I first heard the rumblings about Something Having Happened. And I don't really intend on getting re-involved with Wintreath or involved with Campfire to any real extent. But when I saw the makeup of your Stability Squad in today's mass telegram, I felt the need to come in here and point out that a fundamental part of the problem is every single one of y'all is a white dude and part of the fundamental fucking problem being invisible to you is that you're all white (although for maximum fairness, Lau, at least, gets points for being a minority in his home country, which may help with grasping the issue, although it doesn't seem to have happened in this case) (Yes, I understand that two members of the RSS are gay, and that is a sexual minority, but the ways in which racial discrimination happen differ from anti-LGBT bigotry or gender discrimination or ageism or literally any other form of -ism and that's kind of why you want a diverse group of people in your team so they can catch shit before it becomes a problem).
But yeah, like, literally the only POC member of the Op team left over what is fundamentally an issue about perceptions/understandings of racial discrimination and you don't immediately respond by finding more POC perspectives for your transition team? Either find y'all some fresh blood (some with different perspectives that will call you on shit in private, and then listen to them from time to time, instead of making people air this shit out in public cause you won't listen otherwise), or accept that the community is going to become an increasingly incestuous, constantly shrinking one entirely composed of all the same old faces all the time.
Last point: stop being so conflict-averse. It is one thing to avoid serious conflict, but the need to constantly present that everybody is universally conflict-averse in all respects in the interests of civility just means that a bunch of minor disagreements, shoved into a closet and unaired, wind up festering until all that built-up pressure violently explodes into what is yet another fucking schism.
Minor fights about perspectives are inevitable if you truly are trying to create an inclusive community that encompasses all points of view - trying to wallpaper over them in the interests of 'oh we're just a big happy family here, we never fight' does not solve the underlying issues that a lack of a decent outlet for them causes. A big part of why I left in the first place was the constant sense of walking on eggshells because half the time when some good discussion would finally get going in CW it'd be muted; I joined some other servers towards the end of my tenure in Wintreath and the lack of a constant impetus towards some false obligation of civility has arguably led to a much greater sense of camaraderie, even if I catch a lot more shit for it.
I've had some rip-roaring arguments with Lau and still consider us chill because reasonable people can stridently disagree with each other about things and not hold a grudge about it, provided they're allowed to actually have those strident disagreements instead of plastering a smile on their face and pretending everybody is one big happy Stepford family.
Fair on all counts. I'm a minority, but I've certainly never had it nearly as rough as Muslims in America. I've also never been in America.
Also, I'm down for some more rip-roaring debates if you're ever in the neighbourhood again.
-
After Doc's post yesterday, Laurentus ran us through some of the op chat logs that have been published, giving Michi and I a push to figure out what we had missed at the time...we missed the fact that trader was sharing his feelings as somebody who experiences discrimination and can't hide the reason that he's discriminated against. I can't speak for Michi, but I thought he was just giving an example of how Michi's intended statement was wrong, but in doing so we completely dismissed his own feelings as someone who experiences discrimination, and that had to be incredibly hurtful. It's not that I ever intended to hurt him or anybody else...he was someone I thought of as one of my closest friends, but I'm sure I did regardless.
Afterwards, I starting looking up and going through sensitivity training. I was dismayed to feel like I maybe needed that...I always thought it was for hate-filled bigots who have to have it to keep themselves barely in line enough to keep their jobs. I'm a liberal, I despise discrimination of any kind, and beyond that I proudly think of myself as a compassionate and loving person who tries to bring those aspects of myself in leading Wintreath. But obviously in this and other cases, that wasn't enough. My actions, though made with the best of intentions at the time, had the opposite effect and hurt people I considered to be friends even more.
Through that, I came to realize the pattern of dismissiveness that's strung through all the incidents over the years. We focused on the fact that the person who did what they did in each incident didn't intend to hurt anyone, and in doing so dismissed the people who were hurt regardless. Even if it wasn't consciously intended, the message we put out was that people didn't have the right to feel what they felt, or that we just didn't care that they were hurt.
- In the bob incident, we focused on the fact that AJ was just joking and didn't mean to hurt anybody. I failed to understand that people were hurt regardless of AJ's intentions, and in the process dismissed their feelings. The result was a very technical solution (disallowing ops to change people's names) that treated a symptom rather than the real cause of the incident.
- In the furry incident, I focused on my assumption that Svip was offended at what Michi intended to say, and again in the process dismissed that she and then others were obviously offended and hurt regardless of intent. When I apologized for the misunderstanding, I thought the matter was resolved, but I failed to even recognize the very real hurt that was caused by the initial incident and made worse by the ignorant way I handled the matter, much less address it.
And I think that's the key to what I've been asking. Maybe I couldn't have recognized why Svip was offended any earlier than I did, but I could have and should have recognized that she was offended and started from there. I could apologized that our discussion offended her, then when things were less heated worked with her and anybody else to figure out the why. I could have done that at any point, but I didn't...because I believed the intent was what matters, on some level I think I thought they were wrong to feel angry over something that wasn't intended. And while I was very aware of the anger people felt, I completely failed to realize that they were hurt, too, even though I think it was directly stated to me at least once.
The statement that was made assumes that I should have just gotten it as soon as things were explained to me, and maybe a better man would have. But I'm sorry to say I really struggled to get this. Even after Lau brought it up, it took a lot of discussion, probing, and even roleplay for me to start to get it. And I know there's more for me to get, but this is what I've realized so far. I don't expect or want anything to come out of this...I don't expect a medal for finally starting to get what seems to have been obvious to everyone else all along. But I realize that I was wrong...in each incident over the last few years, my inept, ignorant, and dismissive handling of those situations repeatedly hurt people that I cared about and caused harm to our community.
I can only vow to become a better leader and better person in the future, but I know the damage is already done. I'm sorry to Svip, trader, and everybody else that was offended and hurt over my mishandling of this incident and the numerous others over the past few years. And I'm sorry to our entire community that my mishandling made Wintreath, something many of us have poured our hearts and souls into, into something less than what it should have been.
-
Just caught up on forum posts. Doc makes an excellent point about the need for POC/racial minority voices in the transition team. IRL, I have some experience in community and solidarity building in Asian American political circles, and I hope I can help provide that perspective in discussions going forward.
I was hesitant to join the Regional Stability Squad when invited, for a variety of reasons, but Doc's post, as well as Wintermoot's willingness to learn, has swayed me. I am impressed by the progress that Wintermoot has made in educating himself and understanding the root causes of our community's conflicts. And I am hopeful that this progress can continue so that we can remake Wintreath into a place of safety, support, and allyship for all in our community and their identities.
-
@taulover: Thank you for your kind words, and for lending your voice to our efforts to become a better place. I look forward to working with you. :)
-
I am probably gonna piss off a bunch of people on all sides of this debacle with this post, but I must do what I believe is right. Anyway
It is certainly true that Wintermoot has flaws as a leader, as does the rest of Wintreath's leadership past and present. Wintreath is led by people and all people are flawed. As I said last month, senior individuals in Wintreath have history of doing what at first was a minor misstep, but which then blows completely out of proportion because they refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing. As leaders, the impact of our actions often matter far more than the intent, and it can be hard to recognize that. Meanwhile, due to the Fundamental Attribution Error, others' intent and context are often ignored. I will point to two recent examples.
First, the circumstances leading to Neon Abigail's departure in August (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=7813.0). This conflict not only led to the departure of a valued member of our community, but severed what I understand to have been a close friendship. To recap, Abi had left the Discord server, which iirc is something she had a history of doing previously as well in order to cool off after heated discussions. She was still actively posting on the forums and participating in Werewolf, but Mars assumed for some reason that she was no longer hosting Summersend Spyfall, and thus unilaterally announced the cancellation of her game. Abi reacted confused, but instead of just apologizing, Mars doubled down and made excuses, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They also appeared to snarkily drag up private interpersonal relationship drama, which felt inappropriate given that Mars was acting in an official capacity as Thane. Michi then also shifted the blame to Abi by placing the onus on her to reach out to still confirm that she was still hosting. This was incredibly odd to me, and Abi expressed confusion as well when I reached out to her. From her perspective, she had left the Discord to deescalate tensions quietly, and instead, Mars had used her completely unrelated role as Thane of Culture to drag this out into the open. Even though I know it was not intended as such, it probably felt like she was being punished by someone in an unequal power dynamic for things done in a completely separate context.
Michi had locked the relevant forum thread (which I believe created a chilling effect on helping to resolve and learn from this drama - several people were using likes to show support for Abi, but nothing could be easily said), so I reached out Wintermoot privately, as I know he tends to prefer this. As he typically does, Wintermoot wholly defended Mars (and Michi), claiming that the validity of their actions was a matter of debate and that they certainly did not intend to do this. By contrast, Abi's feelings (which were very understandable given the context, imo) were being misinterpreted as as an accusation that Wintrean leadership was conspiring to punish her. Both publicly and privately, and both out of earshot and to her face, a narrative was being told that Abi was the one to blame, that she was the one being unreasonable, etc. Every consideration was being made to the intent of the leadership, but not to Abi's. Furthermore, by keeping so much of this in DMs, these narratives could form unchecked. As I said last month, we need to try to understand the other side and apologize for misunderstanding, instead of doubling down on our mistakes and misinterpretations. It's very human to do this - I certainly have in the past - but community leaders must strive to be better than that.
After that, I did not have the energy to speak out about my concerns publicly. I was moving to a new city and starting a full-time job for the first time - other things took priority, and I ended up taking a break from Wintreath. I'm sorry that we couldn't resolve this at the time - there was so much we should have learned as a community but did not.
Second, the furry bigotry incident. Much has already been said about this, so I will just share my two cents. I understand where Michi was coming from - furries are the target of bigotry, the most notable incident probably being a tear gas attack by a right-wing terrorist in 2014, which was largely laughed at by mainstream media and government authorities instead of taken seriously. However, we can sometimes misspeak and then be misinterpreted as a result. What we meant to say or do is different from what we actually said or did. Michi had a very reasonable opinion that was worded very poorly. Instead of recognizing this mistake, and apologizing for the accidental harm caused by his poor choice of wording, he doubled down based on what he intended to say. But again, impact is what matters here, not intent. Refusal to acknowledge this has led to repeated blowings-up of what should have been minor issues.
(I will also point out that during this incident, trader muted people who were airing their grievances on Discord, thereby further inflaming tensions.)
With all this said, I think it should be clear to anyone reading that the letter in the OP does resonate with me (even if the facts presented ore rather one-sided). As trader said in his letter, and as I said last month, all that people really needed in these situations was an acknowledgement of the mistake, an apology. Instead, the pattern has been one of doubling down and escalation. It's important to note though that these issues are not exclusive to any one person, but to many key community leaders in general, including those on both sides of this split. We are all human and we can only strive to be better than we were before.
Finally, I must say that the community's treatment of Wintermoot last night in #wintreath was completely unwarranted and uncalled for. The continuous mockery and public shaming was utterly unnecessary, unproductive, and self-serving.
I'll be around on the forums as always. Campfire has taken the Minecraft server with them, so I'll be over there too (Pond and I are finally building actual Nether infrastructure, complete with blue ice boat roads). I wish all community leaders the best of luck and hope that you can take the important lessons necessary from everything that has happened. Your jobs are not enviable but I hope they are fulfilling.
Edit: minor phrasing
Hi.
So a big thing with moderation here was that I never felt like I had a voice. I tried a lot to speak up and explain things that were bothering me and why they were bothering me and how they were bothering me and I just got shot down and silenced again and again and again every single time.
I wasn't leadership and I wasn't trying to be but there were problems and I saw cracks and I wanted to help because I loved it here so I tried to.
Now don't get me wrong. I was not and am not a stable person emotionally and I fucked up a lot and I got upset and I got heated but like...I don't think things were ever really handled well.
The reason why I left discord in the first place that last time was because I was trying to discuss some moderation things going on with Silv over a game that I thought were kinda being overblown and I got silenced and basically told to stay in my lane. So I left to chill which is something I was working on because I didn't want to cause problems anymore and leaving to calm down was an effective way for me to not boil over on people. And a unilateral decision was made to cancel my game without anyone ever talking to me and it upset me and not a single voice in power tried to understand my perspective. Not one. I was just railed on by everyone including people I thought... and still think of personally...as my friends. Some of my closest fucking friends in fact.
I don't feel I was treated fairly for one second of that time. I have spent months... to this very day in fact... crying to my boyfriend on random days because one of the people that meant the most to me in this world hates me because of a misunderstanding and I was never given a chance. Leadership here didn't try to give me a voice or understand what I meant or how I felt because it didn't matter all that mattered was what they thought my intent was.
So... that's that. My thoughts on the most recent incident align with those who left. I wasn't here and I'm not going to try to be a part of that but what I will say is.
This region has had a huge issue with moderation and their inability and unwillingness to give those outside moderation any benefit of the doubt and any intent or willingness to listen or understand the point and intent and actual meaning of others. This was true when I left and it is true now.
Wintreath meant the world to me. It formed friendships for me that meant the world to me with people I went out of my way to meet in real life. The web of what Wintreath meant to me and my life is how I met my boyfriend and its how I met people I considered my best friends. It's also led to the loss of a lot of those same friendships Wintreath for as much as it had given me took just as much away from me. It spiraled me into a depression I'm still fighting against. It led me to leave not just the region but NS and for a while the internet itself all together.
Wintreath needs a lot of work it can be beautiful but it can be ugly as well and I hope those of you who remain work hard to try to understand... truly understand and acknowledge the work and the issues and the problems on a deep level. This needs more than lip service it needs real fundamental effort to fix.
-
@☆ Neon ☆: For what it's worth, I'm terribly sorry that I played a role in putting you through all that you've been through. I have no excuse. tau's description of what I said to him when he reached out is correct, and I'm not sure I ever even thought to reach out to you personally try to understand what was going on your end. I don't know why...that's the maddening thing about this. It seems so obvious now, but for some reason it just didn't at the time.
But I know what you're going through, because it's what I'm going through now. I now know what it's like to lose friends that you thought you'd have for life, to break down thinking that people you care about and even love don't want anything to do with you or even hate you...to start on a downward spiral that leaves you a broken, sobbing mess questioning your entire existence or worth as a person. I'm grateful for the friends I have that help me to deal with it when those feelings come crashing down...but at least I deserve those things, you absolutely did not. What happened should not have led to your game being cancelled or anything happening, much less the loss of your closest friends. You weren't treated fairly at all, and it kills me that you're going through this too when you're not at fault.
But I do know how you feel. And again, I'm grateful that you were so open with sharing how what happened made and continues to make you feel...I can't imagine that it was easy for you to come back and do that. Wintreath was a very special place...the sort of place where you could make friendships and be close to people like almost nowhere else online. But when things are mishandled and go out of control, the results can be devastating...as I think everybody that's been here long enough can speak to in one way or another. Maybe someday it can be that place again, minus the horrible things. I don't know what you think of what we've been doing since then...but I hope you and others see it as fundamental effort instead of just lip service. If we're going down the wrong path, please let us know why you feel that way. I said at the beginning that I would do what it takes to become a better person, friend, and leader...and to fix the systemic issues in Wintreath as well, and I still mean it.
But thank you again for reaching out and letting us know how what happened made you feel...it more than makes clear the consequences of our fucking up as leaders and moderators.
-
Also, trader's opinion was pretty clear when he singled you out as someone that should never have been an Op.
Except trader actually approved Michi as an op again at the same time Mars became an op.
Actually, now that I think about it, and I'll have to go back to the logs, but I think that was entirely trader's decision (not that I would have opposed it, of course).
I want to note that posts like this are like not good because whatever your intent it reads negatively.
It reads like you are trying to discredit and shift blame onto someone who raised an issue with something. It reads like you are trying to harm the people who raised a concern against you. It reads extensively defensive.
Ultimately what is leadership trying to accomplish when they post this? What do you want to accomplish and what do you think you are actually going to accomplish with posts like these?
-
@☆ Neon ☆: For what it's worth, I'm terribly sorry that I played a role in putting you through all that you've been through. I have no excuse. tau's description of what I said to him when he reached out is correct, and I'm not sure I ever even thought to reach out to you personally try to understand what was going on your end. I don't know why...that's the maddening thing about this. It seems so obvious now, but for some reason it just didn't at the time.
But I know what you're going through, because it's what I'm going through now. I now know what it's like to lose friends that you thought you'd have for life, to break down thinking that people you care about and even love don't want anything to do with you or even hate you...to start on a downward spiral that leaves you a broken, sobbing mess questioning your entire existence or worth as a person. I'm grateful for the friends I have that help me to deal with it when those feelings come crashing down...but at least I deserve those things, you absolutely did not. What happened should not have led to your game being cancelled or anything happening, much less the loss of your closest friends. You weren't treated fairly at all, and it kills me that you're going through this too when you're not at fault.
But I do know how you feel. And again, I'm grateful that you were so open with sharing how what happened made and continues to make you feel...I can't imagine that it was easy for you to come back and do that. Wintreath was a very special place...the sort of place where you could make friendships and be close to people like almost nowhere else online. But when things are mishandled and go out of control, the results can be devastating...as I think everybody that's been here long enough can speak to in one way or another. Maybe someday it can be that place again, minus the horrible things. I don't know what you think of what we've been doing since then...but I hope you and others see it as fundamental effort instead of just lip service. If we're going down the wrong path, please let us know why you feel that way. I said at the beginning that I would do what it takes to become a better person, friend, and leader...and to fix the systemic issues in Wintreath as well, and I still mean it.
But thank you again for reaching out and letting us know how what happened made you feel...it more than makes clear the consequences of our fucking up as leaders and moderators.
I'm going to reply to this as thoroughly as possible. The thing here is that things should be simple right? To me in this situation right now the simple thing and the right thing is for Michi to apologize and step down from the position of Op immediately. Michi is not a bad person I've spent a lot of time around him we even ran a region together for a while I know this and I know Michi is smart and I know he understands how what he said was wrong even as unintended as it was. The solution was an apology, acceptance that a mistake was made and a step down from leadership and that step down could have even just been temporary I think. This situation needed not happen.
Same too the situation which led to me leaving never needed to happen. All that needed to happen was to have someone ask if I was going to continue to take part in Summersend. Instead an assumption based on others and not myself was made. I had left the Discord before and remained in the region and active and came back in hours or at worst a few days.
The Bob incident too had a relatively simple solution. But in each instance the worst possible set of events transpires. It's important to figure out why it seems that situations like these arise and people double or triple down instead of taking a step back realizing there was a mistake and taking the right steps.
Next. You do not deserve to be treated poorly. Nobody here deserves to be treated poorly nobody who left nobody who stayed nobody deserves to be treated poorly. There are people who deserve to have the worst most painful shitty existence and you are not one of them. You do not deserve to feel like shit to feel depressed and hopeless. If you truly feel how I've felt these last several months you do not deserve that. It sucks. I'm not trying to make you or anyone else feel bad I'm just trying to create a dialog and maybe also make sure like this doesn't happen again to anyone.
The important thing is like... well something I struggled with was like realizing the people aren't going to come back. I'm not getting my friends back probably. But I can grow. I can better myself and learn to handle myself in situations better. I can look at what happened and take steps necessary so that I can grow and improve myself so I don't make my friend in the future feel like I'm personally attacking them with my words unintended or not. I can learn to handle my feelings better and be an adult. That's the growth I've tried to reach while being gone. So look at this for yourself and the region. Don't feel negatively about yourself don't try to approach this like you deserve it. You need to look at the situation figure out the problems and work every day to fix this because your probably not getting anyone back but you can throw growth and leadership to make it not happen with the next group that calls this their home right? So how does the region grow and how does the leadership grow and how do you grow and all change from this for the future?
Anyways I've buried my feelings on why I left for so long and being here hurts and talking about things hurts and what happened to me means nothing really what happened next is infinitely worse than what happened to me. However I came to Wintreath today because someone asked me to find my first Werewolf game for them and it was here. But when I came to search for that I saw Michis post and it caught my eye as someone who left the region. Unintended for me as it was I read it. Than I found this and read through the post from Mars and than the replies here and saw my name and I guess...I don't know I decided to talk for the first time... and tell the truth about how moderation here effected me because I want it to be known this region carries weight and the consequences of what happen here what's said here and what's done here holds weight.
You might think it's ridiculous that I've let this personally effect me for months. I think it's ridiculous that I've let this personally effect me for months but it has. There's are times when I least expect it where I break down in tears and when asked why it's because I don't know what I did wrong here. Like... it's so dumb. I do not want you to feel bad about yourself. I do not want to upset you. I want you to understand that a simple thing... the simplest smallest thing can matter a ton and sometimes not taking a step back to cool down before replying can ruin everything and sometimes the smallest ripple can cause the wave that destroys a nation. So it's important to figure out what actions can happen here to stop this cycle because it's happened so many times.
-
@☆ Neon ☆: This has been a long evolution for me that's taken place over days and weeks. You're not the first person to say that things were simple or obvious, and I know they were to most everyone else, but they weren't to me. It seemed obvious to me that Michi didn't intend how it was being taken, so I couldn't understand why people were so angry over it...and as I said later on (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=8039.msg172721#msg172721), I didn't even see the fact that people had been hurt over it. Had it not been for the pain of losing so many of my closest friends in the manner that they left driving me to try to understand why they had done so, and if it hadn't been for Lau's skilled and patient teaching, I doubt that would have ever came to understand.
I'm not trying to make excuses...there is no excuse for my dismissiveness, my failure to understand how people including my closest friends were hurting because of it, or the fact that it had to get that far before I could understand. I'm saying this to explain where I was at the time...I was never going to be able to handle that situation or those that came before it appropriately because I was really that oblivious, which is why it ultimately fell to trader to handle them in the past even though it wasn't his burden to begin with. And you're right, the initial situations before I made them worse could have been resolved simply...but I really was that oblivious, and that's why I made them worse instead.
When I posted the first thing you replied to about who brought Michi back in the ops team, I still had no idea what I had done wrong...I was hurt, and confused, and honestly a little angry about some specific things. I felt like I was being blamed for bringing Michi back on the ops team to start with, and that's the place that I posted from at the time. Any sort of realization would not come until later on in the topic, and I know it's the same for Michi because he went through this process with me...Lau went through things with him at the same time he did with me, and it's something he struggled with as well, and then we dealt with them all over again in the recent events involving Alien Zombie (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=8052.0). It's not something that I would have posted a week later, but I'm not one to delete things to cover up the fact that I was stupid.
Michi has apologized and committed to stepping down as an op (https://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=8055). The only reason he hasn't already done so is because it would leave me and Wuufu as the only two ops left on Discord. Understandably with things as they are, it's a struggle to find people who are able, willing, and have the time to serve in that capacity, although hopefully that will change in the future.
I appreciate your kind words about the pain of losing friends...it's not something I've brought up in public before, because our focus needs to be on fixing the things that have gone horribly wrong and rebuilding our community back better, not on my mental health struggles. But I felt it was important for you to know that I understand what you're going through and how you're feeling there. It's not ridiculous at all...just because the friendships were online doesn't make them mean any less...we've always been super close-knit in Wintreath, and when you lose a close friend it's agonizing...it's like the foundation that helped hold you together has been ripped apart. And unlike me, you did nothing to deserve losing those friendships. And for what it's worth, I don't think it's dumb.
But in my case, it's not so much a matter of being treated poorly as much as it being one of the consequences of my actions, inactions, and general dismissiveness over the course of years. I personally hurt them, both directly at times and through my dismissiveness on matters involving issues we deeply care about...after so many years, and so much disillusionment, and so little hope that I would ever get it, who can blame them for finally having enough of it?
And maybe it's what I needed. The other day I was listening the commencement speech that Steve Jobs gave at Stanford in 2005, and something he said about being forced out of Apple in the 80s struck me: "It was awful tasting medicine, but I guess the patient needed it." As I've already said, I doubt that I would have ever came to understand what I was doing wrong if it weren't for the pain of losing them driving me to do so. Beyond that, I now know first-hand the pain and misery we inflict on our community when we fail the trust placed in us. What made Wintreath special was that we were entrusted with people's feelings and vulnerabilities...we could have never been that super close-knit community of friends without that. But it's also what makes things so crushing when we fail that trust, and I now know that feeling intimately.
I can't imagine how much it hurts for you to be here talking about what you've been through because of what happened. You could have easily ignored the whole thing and been on your way, but I'm glad and grateful that you didn't. I needed to hear what you're going through, and I don't know, maybe I needed to make that connection with what I'm feeling. Now I know how I've made or helped to make people like you feel in our community, and if there's a silver lining at all, it's that knowing this feeling will drive me to make sure nobody has to feel this way in our community again.
As for changing from this for the future, I've posted a lot of stuff on behalf of the RSS is the Compendium forum, and some more stuff on a personal level in the Say What's On Your Mind topic...I don't know how interested in the details of everything we're talking about and considering you are, but if it's something you're interested in I would welcome your thoughts on any of it. But if it hurts too much to be more involved with what we're doing, that's ok, I understand that too. I'm grateful for what you shared with me already...know that I did get something important out of it.