Wintreath Regional Community

The Amalyan Quarter - Fun Things We Do => The Lost Village - Werewolf/Mafia Games => Topic started by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on July 30, 2022, 08:13:38 AM

Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on July 30, 2022, 08:13:38 AM
Alright my experience as a player who's recently gone globe trotting through numerous mafia communities has taught me many many lessons.

The biggest one has led to this proposal. Many communities are phasing out use of the word lynch across their Werewolf games. And indeed I struggled at first to not use the word myself but over time it's become a habit now for me to not use the word. 

Regardless of this proposals implementation this rule will now apply to all my games in full. 

I propose the permanent ban of the word lynch in Werewolf games due to its negative connotation and association to communities of color.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Arenado on July 30, 2022, 08:24:37 AM
I'm not opposed to disallowing the use of the word from our games in future, certainly. I think if we started with banning the use for hosts and strongly encouraging players not to use it, within a few games, the vocabulary would inevitably drift towards more neutral terms. I certainly have no issues with this change.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on July 30, 2022, 08:39:02 AM
Some words I've seen used in place are Elimination, Execution and lesser used Hang.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Arenado on July 30, 2022, 09:01:17 AM
Personally, I would use Eliminate, nice and euphemistic, but I don't want to compel hosts to use certain phrases, just not use certain particular terms. I'm leaning toward implementing it as a rule but I would love to hear what other people have to say first. In the mean time, I'll be looking into phrasing for a new rule for hosts and players. Thank you for your proposal, Abbi :]
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on July 30, 2022, 10:05:28 AM
I use lim as shorthand for eliminate mostly. 

However really anything works. My game basically says use whatever you want except lynch
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Gerrick on July 30, 2022, 07:22:11 PM
Yeah, lynch is a bit yikes, and eliminate sounds better anyway. I'm for it.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Wintermoot on July 30, 2022, 07:26:55 PM
I'll take it even further, I don't even like the use of the word "scum" in games.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on July 31, 2022, 12:09:59 AM
I'll take it even further, I don't even like the use of the word "scum" in games.
I'm fine with Scum

Like it's definition is quite literally what Mafia is

a vile, or low person or group of people

That's mafia. Not the people. Nobody is calling you scum directly you are playing a game as scum. Essentially your character is quite literally scum
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Numbers on July 31, 2022, 10:25:28 PM
Some words I've seen used in place are Elimination, Execution and lesser used Hang.
Hang seems too synonyms to me, I probably would take that off the possibility list. Elimination's ambiguity makes it the best choice in general, I think. Flavor specific words are always nice in heavily themed games. 
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Michi on August 01, 2022, 01:15:05 AM
I'm fine getting rid of lynch and replacing it with better words.  Like Moot I also have never vibed with the term Scum, so I'm totally cool going back to just calling the bad guys wolves or whatever they're called in the game.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 01, 2022, 02:23:20 AM
Some words I've seen used in place are Elimination, Execution and lesser used Hang.
Hang seems too synonyms to me, I probably would take that off the possibility list. Elimination's ambiguity makes it the best choice in general, I think. Flavor specific words are always nice in heavily themed games.
I've been exclusively using lim lol
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Laurentus on August 01, 2022, 09:37:53 AM
I was against the ban on MU and I am against the ban here. It is a racially charged word in America and nowhere else. The word is short and brutal and has the exact feel it's intended to have: a somewhat unhinged mob engaging in what is essentially a witch hunt. The word scum is also exactly what it sounds like. You think the person might be part of the Mafia. Even this can be a charged term if its intention is not understood in the context of the game. Merriam Webster defines it as a low, vile or worthless person or group of people. It would definitely lend itself to being used in a discrimatory way by some of its users, probably more so than lynch. Lynch is just an action, the same as hang, beheading, execution, etc. And anyone can be hanged, lynched, beheaded, executed, not just people of colour. Banning one word really does call into question a lot of the common vocabulary used in a mafia game. I'm against it in principle, because again, these bans are often reactionary to an Amero-centric worldview. 
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Wintermoot on August 01, 2022, 07:50:25 PM
So I looked up how often the words "scum" and "lynch" are used in our games.

There's not much rhyme or reasons for how often "lynch" has been used in our games, though there's some interesting variation between games. I suspect that a lot of it may do with the "No lynch" vote, which became a requirement to use with the new Werewolf system in recent games. An easy way to reduce our usage of that word would be to change this option to something else. I can see both sides of the argument...on one hand, the word's use by itself isn't racist, but on the other hand in certain communities it is heavily associated with racist motivations.

At the end of the day there's other words that can be used that don't change how the game is played. If there are people that are uncomfortable with the use of that word in Wintreath, then it would be courteous to at least discourage its use.

Percentage of Posts with the Word "Lynch" in Werewolf Games
2021 - Werewolf 24: Attack on Titan: 34.8%
2018 - Werewolf 14-2: A Werewolf of Ice and Fire (The Wall): 34.4%
2019 - Werewolf 18: Wintreath's Got Talent! - Champions Edition: 33.3%
2015 - Werewolf 3: Yu Gi Oh Abridged: 26.7%
2021 - Lil' Wolf I: Party On, Wolves: 24.8%
2018 - Werewolf 17: Santa's Apprentice: 24.5%
2020 - Werewolf 21: The Beginning of the End - 23.7%
2022 - Werewolf 28: Just Desserts: 22.8%
2016 - Werewolf 7: Star Wars - The Battle Forgotten: 22.9%
2020 - Werewolf 23: A Lord of the Rings Adventure: 20.9%
2022 - Werewolf 26: A New Adventure in Old London: 20.5%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and...Turrets? (Take 2): 19.8%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and Turrets: 14.2%
2022 - Werewolf 25: When Worlds Collide: 11.8%
2016 - Werewolf 6: Until Dawn - New Chapter: 6.9%
*All other games had fewer than 50 posts with the word lynch
**Includes words made up from lynch

But I'm more concerned with the use of the word "scum". In a community that's supposed to be warm and friendly, and in a Werewolf scene that traditionally saw very friendly games, it's never set right with me that players call each other scum, even in the context of a game...it makes me wonder if it's contributed to the tense emotions that the games sometimes have. And it's only become prominent in our games in the last few years.

Percentage of Posts with the Word "Scum" in Werewolf Games
2021 - Werewolf 24: Attack on Titan: 40.4%
2021 - Lil' Wolf I: Party On, Wolves: 36.5%
2022 - Werewolf 27: A Golden Affair: 24.4%
2020 - Werewolf 23: A Lord of the Rings Adventure: 21.5%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and Turrets: 21.2%
2022 - Werewolf 25: When Worlds Collide: 20.4%
2020 - Werewolf 22-2: Of Cores and... Turrets? (Take 2): 18.2%
2022 - Werewolf 26: A New Adventure in Old London: 14.1%
2022 - Werewolf 28: Just Desserts: 11.4%
2019 - Werewolf 18: Wintreath's Got Talent: 9.9%
2020 - Werewolf 21: The Beginning of the End: 8.9%
2019 - Werewolf 20: Those of No Reflextion: 7.0%
2019 - Werewolf 19: Just a Husk in the Masses: 6.7%
2021 - Botwolf: Welcome to Boneville: 6.0%
2015 - Werewolf 4: Ye Olde Arthurian Legend: 4.1%

*All other games had fewer than 5 posts with the word scum
**Includes words made up from scum such as scumread or scummy
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 01, 2022, 09:44:28 PM
So I looked up how often the words "scum" and "lynch" are used in our games.

There's not much rhyme or reasons for how often "lynch" has been used in our games, though there's some interesting variation between games. I suspect that a lot of it may do with the "No lynch" vote, which became a requirement to use with the new Werewolf system in recent games. An easy way to reduce our usage of that word would be to change this option to something else. I can see both sides of the argument...on one hand, the word's use by itself isn't racist, but on the other hand in certain communities it is heavily associated with racist motivations.

At the end of the day there's other words that can be used that don't change how the game is played. If there are people that are uncomfortable with the use of that word in Wintreath, then it would be courteous to at least discourage its use.

Percentage of Posts with the Word "Lynch" in Werewolf Games
2021 - Werewolf 24: Attack on Titan: 34.8%
2018 - Werewolf 14-2: A Werewolf of Ice and Fire (The Wall): 34.4%
2019 - Werewolf 18: Wintreath's Got Talent! - Champions Edition: 33.3%
2015 - Werewolf 3: Yu Gi Oh Abridged: 26.7%
2021 - Lil' Wolf I: Party On, Wolves: 24.8%
2018 - Werewolf 17: Santa's Apprentice: 24.5%
2020 - Werewolf 21: The Beginning of the End - 23.7%
2022 - Werewolf 28: Just Desserts: 22.8%
2016 - Werewolf 7: Star Wars - The Battle Forgotten: 22.9%
2020 - Werewolf 23: A Lord of the Rings Adventure: 20.9%
2022 - Werewolf 26: A New Adventure in Old London: 20.5%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and...Turrets? (Take 2): 19.8%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and Turrets: 14.2%
2022 - Werewolf 25: When Worlds Collide: 11.8%
2016 - Werewolf 6: Until Dawn - New Chapter: 6.9%
*All other games had fewer than 50 posts with the word lynch
**Includes words made up from lynch

But I'm more concerned with the use of the word "scum". In a community that's supposed to be warm and friendly, and in a Werewolf scene that traditionally saw very friendly games, it's never set right with me that players call each other scum, even in the context of a game...it makes me wonder if it's contributed to the tense emotions that the games sometimes have. And it's only become prominent in our games in the last few years.

Percentage of Posts with the Word "Scum" in Werewolf Games
2021 - Werewolf 24: Attack on Titan: 40.4%
2021 - Lil' Wolf I: Party On, Wolves: 36.5%
2022 - Werewolf 27: A Golden Affair: 24.4%
2020 - Werewolf 23: A Lord of the Rings Adventure: 21.5%
2020 - Werewolf 22: Of Cores and Turrets: 21.2%
2022 - Werewolf 25: When Worlds Collide: 20.4%
2020 - Werewolf 22-2: Of Cores and... Turrets? (Take 2): 18.2%
2022 - Werewolf 26: A New Adventure in Old London: 14.1%
2022 - Werewolf 28: Just Desserts: 11.4%
2019 - Werewolf 18: Wintreath's Got Talent: 9.9%
2020 - Werewolf 21: The Beginning of the End: 8.9%
2019 - Werewolf 20: Those of No Reflextion: 7.0%
2019 - Werewolf 19: Just a Husk in the Masses: 6.7%
2021 - Botwolf: Welcome to Boneville: 6.0%
2015 - Werewolf 4: Ye Olde Arthurian Legend: 4.1%

*All other games had fewer than 5 posts with the word scum
**Includes words made up from scum such as scumread or scummy
It's Werewolf Moot. No matter how hard you try people are going to have tense emotions. It's the game not the words being used.

I wouldn't even care about lynch as a word if it wasn't directly tied to the triple Ks
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 01, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Werewolf is inherently going to cause high emotions. The whole basis of the game is having to defend yourself from people reading motive into every word because they think everyone is lying
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 01, 2022, 09:47:21 PM
I don't really care if you ban the word scum but it's not going to make the game nicer
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Arenado on August 02, 2022, 04:27:06 AM
I was against the ban on MU and I am against the ban here. It is a racially charged word in America and nowhere else. The word is short and brutal and has the exact feel it's intended to have: a somewhat unhinged mob engaging in what is essentially a witch hunt. The word scum is also exactly what it sounds like. You think the person might be part of the Mafia. Even this can be a charged term if its intention is not understood in the context of the game. Merriam Webster defines it as a low, vile or worthless person or group of people. It would definitely lend itself to being used in a discrimatory way by some of its users, probably more so than lynch. Lynch is just an action, the same as hang, beheading, execution, etc. And anyone can be hanged, lynched, beheaded, executed, not just people of colour. Banning one word really does call into question a lot of the common vocabulary used in a mafia game. I'm against it in principle, because again, these bans are often reactionary to an Amero-centric worldview.
I understand the point you're making but I would argue this is a unique situation. I don't want to go into the history, so I won't, but there is a historical context that makes this particular word unique. I would look at it the same way I would if, instead of 'Lynch', we were using 'Gassed' instead. There is a unique historical context that makes it insensitive to use. The word itself may be neutral, in a vacuum, but there is a context that should be taken into account.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 02, 2022, 05:40:33 AM
And I just want to state that it's not part of an Amero Centric world view to ban a word that is directly tied to racism in one country. I get that the KKK and lynch mobs were a decidedly US thing. But they happened and people of color from the US or anywhere else should not have to see us using a word that is directly attached to racism no matter how many countries don't connect it to racism. 
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 02, 2022, 05:45:20 AM
The question now is,  is Abbi to lazy to change the rules in her game now that the word is banned in totality.

Because I made a rule banning it in my Game with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't matter anymore

And the answer is... maybe lol
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: taulover on August 05, 2022, 12:50:05 AM
Based on Wikipedia at least, lynchings are still tied to racially-motivated violence across much of the world. And the term also probably originated in the US and is thus inextricably tied to how lynchings were done in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: BraveSirRobin on August 05, 2022, 04:55:16 AM
I get the impetus to ban the use of lynch in Werewolf games, but I definitely don't think that a total ban is the way to go, because as Lau says, it is quite US-centric to tie it to the particular racial tensions in this country.  We have to keep in mind that we're a global community and, while we're plurality US people, not everyone is.

But regardless, I'm against any "ban" of language in any form in all circumstances.  I think it's fair to discourage use and the like, but I really don't think we need an all-out ban on it. 

I'll personally try to avoid it, but I think, especially considering the context of a witch hunt and the general verbiage associated with that, going over every word with a fine tooth comb would be a fool's errand at best and actively counterproductive at worst. Groupthink and the weird results of that are inexorably linked to Werewolf dynamics, and by definition historical language associated with mobs and mobthink in history is obviously less than stellar.  I don't think such historical connotations distract from the game, nor do I think that our usage of any words related has any negative effect on society at large significant enough to warrant such a serious curtailment of freedoms, however well-intentioned they are. 

I hope this position makes sense?
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Laurentus on August 05, 2022, 05:32:57 AM
Based on Wikipedia at least, lynchings are still tied to racially-motivated violence across much of the world. And the term also probably originated in the US and is thus inextricably tied to how lynchings were done in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching
Most of the things they list as "lynching" aren't even racially tied.

That said, the comparison to gassing, although not perfect, because that was used specifically in the context of Nazis killing Jews as part of a widespread genocide, is nevertheless a good one, because I can see how it evokes a similar feeling as the word lynch.

Fine. But I want a similarly brutal word to replace it. 😂 
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: taulover on August 05, 2022, 06:15:51 AM
Still, there do seem to be examples of its usage across the world as racially-motivated. And I think more importantly, the term itself originates from the US, and does seem to still be used far more there than anywhere else (and mob killings in other countries often take other names locally), which makes the term itself far more tied to the US's history of racial violence than anywhere else.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 05, 2022, 11:39:43 AM
I actually am surprised there's pushback on the banning of a word tied to some of the most horrific murders
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 05, 2022, 11:47:22 AM
In fact almost every use of the word in that Wikipedia article outside the US still involves the murder of someone

Palestinians suspected of helping Isreal check.

Religious. Check.

Race on race. Check.

Women. Check.

Government sponsored murder. Check.

Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 05, 2022, 11:49:45 AM
Trans people specifically but the lgbt community at large generally are also often the victims of lynch mobs especially outside the US
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 05, 2022, 11:54:13 AM
A word tied so inextricably to incredible hatred of entire groups of people I'm such a way has absolutely no purpose in a community that is welcoming of people from all over of every background every identity. This is not a US centric word. Lynchings world wide are almost always entangled in hate and violence against a minor peoples. The word was created in the US it was most prominent in KKK Era US. This word is tied and deeply rooted in racism and hate there is no other way to slice it ever.
Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: Laurentus on August 05, 2022, 07:28:05 PM
A word tied so inextricably to incredible hatred of entire groups of people I'm such a way has absolutely no purpose in a community that is welcoming of people from all over of every background every identity. This is not a US centric word. Lynchings world wide are almost always entangled in hate and violence against a minor peoples. The word was created in the US it was most prominent in KKK Era US. This word is tied and deeply rooted in racism and hate there is no other way to slice it ever.
True, it's never used in anything but a hateful context. It's a shitty death reserved for people the mob absolutely despises, but it is not only minority groups it was used against. As you'll see in the part they mention about SA, it was a political tool that some black extremists used to punish traitors to the liberation movement too, or sometimes even against people their leader just didn't like.

Which is exactly the point. The vanilla version of this game is a medieval village being terrorised by a shape-shifting monster who eats them. A scenario like that would bring out the worst mob-mentality imaginable.

But yeah, after doing some actual research, it's origins had nothing to do with racism but, similarly to how the swastika became co-opted by the most hateful ideogy imaginable, so too was lynching co-opted by the deep south in racial killings. Source (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/irish-origins-lynching.amp) 

So yeah, upon reflection, the ban is justified. And as I said, I want a similarly brutal word to replace it.

Title: Abbi Has A Proposal
Post by: ☆ Princess Abigail ☆ on August 05, 2022, 07:44:38 PM
A word tied so inextricably to incredible hatred of entire groups of people I'm such a way has absolutely no purpose in a community that is welcoming of people from all over of every background every identity. This is not a US centric word. Lynchings world wide are almost always entangled in hate and violence against a minor peoples. The word was created in the US it was most prominent in KKK Era US. This word is tied and deeply rooted in racism and hate there is no other way to slice it ever.
True, it's never used in anything but a hateful context. It's a shitty death reserved for people the mob absolutely despises, but it is not only minority groups it was used against. As you'll see in the part they mention about SA, it was a political tool that some black extremists used to punish traitors to the liberation movement too, or sometimes even against people their leader just didn't like.

Which is exactly the point. The vanilla version of this game is a medieval village being terrorised by a shape-shifting monster who eats them. A scenario like that would bring out the worst mob-mentality imaginable.

But yeah, after doing some actual research, it's origins had nothing to do with racism but, similarly to how the swastika became co-opted by the most hateful ideogy imaginable, so too was lynching co-opted by the deep south in racial killings. Source (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/irish-origins-lynching.amp)

So yeah, upon reflection, the ban is justified. And as I said, I want a similarly brutal word to replace it.
I'm cool with anything else being used. Just not that.