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A Link to the Past - Archives => The Registry of Things Past - Historic Archive => Frosthold Castle - Wintreath Government => Topic started by: Mathyland on June 11, 2018, 08:55:39 PM

Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: Mathyland on June 11, 2018, 08:55:39 PM
Chanku posted on June 11, 2018, 06:41:12 AM
I introduce this amendment to the UH the changes are as follows:
  • Dissolves the Secretary Position
  • Formalizes the Officers and Offices of the Underhusen. Officers may be any citizen of Wintreath.
  • Allows the Speaker to create, amend, and dissolve Offices of the Underhusen at will.
  • Allows the Speaker to appoint and dismiss any Officer of the Underhusen at will.
  • Turns the Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore into Officers of the Underhusen, and sets limits on their ability to amend these positions, without amending the Procedural Rules
  • Allows the Underhusen to, by a vote, establish, dissolve, and amend any Office of the Underhusen. Doing so enshrines each Office as a 'permanent office' that can only be changed by a vote of the Underhusen. (Dissolution is a bit different)
  • Allows the Underhusen to, by a vote, appoint and dismiss any Officer of the Underhusen (including the Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore)
  • Allows the Speaker to dismiss a Speaker Pro Tempore, but has safe-guards to ensure there is always a Speaker Pro Tempore.
  • Changes the way the Speaker is selected.
The Law
Quote
Title
1. This act is to be cited as the Procedural Rules Officers Amendment.

Amendments
2. Section 2, Subsection A is striken and considered null.
3. Section 8, Subection A is amended to read as follows:
Quote
Should there be only one (1) candidate for Speaker, the candidate shall be Speaker immediately following the nomination period. There shall be no voting period in this instance. This does not apply to the initial nomination by the Monarch.
4. Section 8, Subsection B is amended to read as follows:
Quote
All Skrifa have one (1), and only one (1), vote for Speaker during any of the elections
5. Subsection C is added to Section 8 and reads as follows:
Quote
In the event of a tie after the nomination period, run-off votes are to occur between the tied candidates until one wins. All run-off votes are to last at least twenty-four (24) hours, although the Monarch may increase this time if it is necessary.
6. A new Section 13 is placed before the heading titled "Amendments of the Procedural Rules", and reads as follows:
Quote
The Speaker has the authority to create and dissolve Offices of the Underhusen at his/her will, and is to grant such officer positions a mandate. The Speaker has the authority to appoint or dismiss any citizen as an Officer of the Underhusen, and may title or style the Officer at the discretion of the Speaker. No Officer that is not an elected member of the Underhusen is empowered or allowed to cast a vote within the Underhusen.
7. Subsection A is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
The Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore of the Underhusen are to be Permenant Offices of the Underhusen, and the mandate and the positions can not amended by the Speaker, amended by a vote of the Underhusen, nor may it be dissolved by the Speaker or dissolved by a vote of the Underhusen, outside of an amendment to this document. The Speaker may add additions onto the Mandate of the Speaker or Speaker Pro Tempore, but may not restrict it past the mandate established by this document.
8. Subsection B is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
Any Skrifa may introduce a motion to create an Office of the Underhusen. The motion must outline the Mandate of the Office of the Underhusen, as well as its title. Upon the motion being seconded the Underhusen is to hold a vote on the matter, if the motion succeeds with a two-thirds (2/3rds) super majority vote, then the officer position is created and is to be considered a permenant Office of the Underhusen. The Speaker must fill an Office of the Underhusen created in this manner.
9. Subsection C is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
Any Skrifa may introduce a motion to amend an Office of the Underhusen. The motion must outline the changes to the Mandate and/or to the title. Upon the motion being seconded, the Underhusen is to hold a vote on the matter. If the Office of the Underhusen was established by a vote of the Underhusen, then the vote must pass with a simple-majority vote. If the Office of the Underhusen was established by the Speaker of the Underhusen then the vote must pass with a two-thirds (2/3rds) super majority vote. If the vote passes the amendments are to be enacted. If the Office of the Underhusen was Speaker created, then the Office becomes a permenant office.
10. Sunsection D is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
Any Skrifa may introduce a motion to dissolve an Office of the Underhusen. The motion must name the Office being dissolved and the reason as to why. Upon the motion being seconded the Underhusen is to hold a vote on the matter. If the Office of the Underhusen was established by a vote of the Underhusen, then the vote must pass with a simple-majority vote. If the Office of the Underhusen was established by the Speaker of the Underhusen then the vote must pass with a two-thirds (2/3rds) supermajority vote. If the vote passes the Office is to be dissolved. If the Office was Speaker created, then the Office is to be prohibited from being reformed, and no office can hold that mandate. If the Office was made a permenant office -- either by an amendment motion or a creation motion -- then the Office is simply dissolved, and the Speaker may create a new office with that mandate. The Underhusen can dissolve any office it creates by a motion.
11. Subsection E is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
Any Skrifa may introduce a motion to appoint an Officer of the Underhusen. The motion must name the person nominated, and is to name the Office of the Underhusen they are being appointed to. After the motion is seconded, the matter goes to a vote. If the matter gets a simple majority vote in favor, the person is appointed to the position. Likewise any Skrifa may introduce a motion to dismiss an Officer of the Underhusen. The motion must name the person to be dismissed, and the reason as to the dismissal. After the motion is seconded the matter goes to a vote. If the matter gets a simple majority vote in favor the person is dismissed from the position, and a new person must be appointed. In a motion to appoint position must be vacant and not held by a citizen, likewise in a motion to dismiss the position must be held by a citizen.
12. Subsection F is added to the new Section 13, which reads as follows:
Quote
No prohibition on a mandate for an Office of the Underhusen is to continue after the end of the session, without an amendment to this document. The Speaker and Speaker Pro Tempore are to be dismissed automatically, and any extention to their mandate ends upon the start of a new session.
13. The second Section 13 is to be renumbered, and any subsequent sections are also to be renumbered.
14. Subsection F is added to Section 12, which reads as follows:
Quote
The Speaker Pro Tempore may be dismissed at the discretion of the Speaker, provided that the Speaker appoint a replacement within twenty-four (24) hours. The dismissed Speaker Pro Tempore remains in their positin until a replacement is appointed. If no replacement is appointed within twenty-four (24) hours, then the Speaker Pro Tempore remains and the Speaker may not dismiss the Speaker Pro Tempore for the remainder of that session, or until the Underhusen dismisses the Speaker Pro Tempore by a vote.
15. Subsection B is added to Section 11, which reads as follows:
Quote
All officers of the Underhusen are permitted to have a standing invitation to speak before the Underhusen.
Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: Chanku on June 11, 2018, 09:44:32 PM
Since I have been requested to post this information here, regarding the ideas and intentions behind these changes, here is an explanation that's a bit more long-form.

Officers and Offices of the Underhusen
The main purpose behind this is to give the UH more responsibilities and as a response to some apprehension from the Monarch regarding giving the Storting more responsibilities within the region. The Offices and Officers of the Underhusen give some stability to the governing actions within the Underhusen, as it doesn't rely on a position that will change each session. Officers may also be any Wintrean, but they would ideally be held by Skrifa (excepting a few positions that might be best held by someone else).

In discussions with Taulover regarding this change, and also regarding the Speaker elections, I had proposed the following Offices:

As I stated in the Discord, there is also the potential for the formation of an Office of Records which deals with record keeping of the Underhusen (Keeping the Session Number, making sure the Law page is updated, ect.) which could be held by a Skrifa, but doesn't have to. Although this position could also be merged into the Office of Information and given to an Officer within that Office (the layout of the Office is ultimately up to the Speaker or Underhusen). An additional idea is to also create an Office of Grammar Checking, and while Mathyland already does this, it would allow the Officer managing the Office to speak directly to the Underhusen, to make sure their notes are heard.

Additionally it does attempt to solve the issues of position's mandates just being ignored by allowing any Officer to be dismissed and appointed by a vote of the Underhusen, so if someone isn't doing their duties they can just be replaced. It also further allows the Underhusen to, by a vote, establish, amend, and dissolve offices by a vote. Offices established or amended by a vote of the UH can not be dissolved or amended by the Speaker. This also has the nice effect of allowing the Speaker (and Speaker PT) to be voted out of the Office if they are doing a piss-poor job.

Speaker Selection
This had some different concerns that went into it. First off, with the increased responsibility and power of the Speaker, the Speaker needs to be someone that is responsible, trusted, and can lead. Wintermoot is generally a good judge of character, as such I've trusted them to nominate someone, who hopefully would have the full confidence of the Underhusen. Otherwise it goes to nominations, and additionally the period for this is generally shorter. Hopefully this allows for some additional days, and while a few days may not help that much, it does give overall more time to the UH to discuss and debate laws and ideas.

Further, the reason I gave it to Wintermoot is that the Monarch is the only permenant and relatively unchanging position within Wintreath. The only other positions that are permanent are the Winter Nomad and the World Assembly Delegate (by the Monarch or his/her designee). The WAD is currently elected and the Winter Nomad is a non-political position, as such neither of them are particularly proper in my eyes. Further, the Speaker position is immediately vacated at the start of a new session, as such the past Speaker is inappropriate as well. Additionally the Monarch used to just directly appoint the Speaker, so this is not without precedent.

Finally, another reason for this is a hope for a prevention of things like we just had. As I suspect that four-seat sessions will be common, at least for the next few elections, we will likely have similar situations as we just had, and as such leads to potential politics being played in order to have discussions involving who becomes Speaker. While this doesn't generally happen, the hope is that if the Monarch chooses a decent Speaker, then an agreement won't need to be discussed or created. While I do think some politics isn't necessarily a bad thing, I do recognize that the community generally abstains from it, and as such I would like to be able to ensure that is kept.

General Purposes
My general purpose is to attract people the Underhusen, by having the Offices being able to increase the visibility of the Underhusen/Storting hopefully we can get more people to run in UH elections and vote in UH elections. This gives a little bit of a reward and more of a way to become involved with the Government and the UH, as losing an election doesn't mean you can't participate or help out. Hopefully this leads to people becoming more familiar with our laws (so more eyes can find mistakes), and again more people to participate. With more people participating, it will hopefully help push elections away from primarily electing people because Memes and shit, and moves the Underhusen in a more meritocratic direction, with increased participation and some minor incentives for doing so. Further this will, hopefully, lead to people running for the UH, especially for Speaker, to have a concrete agenda and plan for the Underhusen so that there is a clear plan and goal for a session to work towards. 
Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: taulover on June 12, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
For archival and informational purposes, here is a transcript of the discussion on the #citizens-platform channel of the Discord server:
Spoiler
[4:53 AM] Elbbsas 🥝: I question why there's a part about the Monarch picking the Speaker for a solo election and the floor being opened only iff* that initial nomination doesnt get the majority vote in 24 hours. The fact that the cliff notes version only labels it as "Changes the way the Speaker is selected" and is at the end of the cliff notes and you can only find out what the changes are iff you open the spoiler is also bugging me. Sounds like the most important part, is all.
(*if and only if)

The way I see it, having our Monarch pick the Speaker for a solo election won't ever have the Underhusen not give them a majority vote in, unless someone has royally screwed up in the past. That would be impolite. Plus, it doesn't seem like a fun idea. What if, say, our Monarch picks someone who really doesn't want to be the Speaker? What if someone new wants to try it out, but doesn't want to "speak" up? I dunno, it just sounds like a bad idea all around.
(Love you, Mootles, but this seems really counterproductive).
[5:02 AM] Elbbsas 🥝: Or it might be insomnia getting to me and I'm misreading things, I don't know.
[11:23 AM] taulover: Yeah, I made similar comments to Chanku when he showed me his draft
[11:23 AM] taulover: If I'm not mistaken, Wintermoot wasn't that keen on the idea either
[12:27 PM] Chanku: @ Elbbsas 🥝 first off it is closer to a return of the original way the Speaker was selected, which was just being appointed by the monarch
[12:30 PM] Chanku: Further, with the new authorities and powers of the Underhusen the Speaker should be able to also lead the Underhusen. I have trust that the Monarch would have decent judgement in picking a Speaker. The purpose of the vote is to give the Underhusen a chance to review the candidate. If they disagree, or think a different person would be better they are free to vote against.
[12:30 PM] Chanku: Further, it makes it harder for a situation to occur like just happened
[12:31 PM] Chanku: Where the Speaker election ended up tied until I talked to Taulover and we arranged a deal so a Speaker could be selected.
[12:33 PM] Chanku: Also the bar is higher regardless, which is because the Monarch is expected to have greater discretion wrt this. If the Monarch chooses badly then the Underhusen can signal to the Monarch.
[12:34 PM] Chanku: Further, if the person doesn't want to be Speaker they can always resign or say to vote against them.
[12:34 PM] Chanku: And while it does make it harder for a new person to be Speaker, I would argue the Speaker position does require someone to be a bit more familiar with our laws.
[12:35 PM] Chanku: Especially with the authority the Speaker is gaining.
[12:36 PM] Chanku: Further the bar is different for the Monarch speaker anyway
[12:36 PM] Chanku: They don't need a simple majority
[12:36 PM] Chanku: They need an absolute majority of the Underhusen.
[12:37 PM] Chanku: So voting abstain or not voting is voting against a candidate
[1:41 PM] Crushita: @ Chanku What is the point of this entire bill? Is there an attempt to create a more Prime Minister-like position in the form of the speaker? Also I must reiterate the previous concerns about the selection of the Speaker. While I'm sure we all trust Wintermoot to make the right choice, it seems rather odd to have the Monarch make the choice first. The only cases we need to worry about ties is if the Underhusen is of an even number of seats, and this session is the exception rather then the rule in this case.
[1:42 PM] Chanku: If there are more low-seat sessions, which I do think will occur more often now-a-days
[1:42 PM] Chanku: at the very least we need to be cognizant of that possibility, as generally election participation is on the downswing (especially for UH elections)
[1:43 PM] Chanku: Also the allowing the Monarch to make the first choice generally seemed like the best option. It's not that far-fetched for the Underhusen (the Speaker was initially appointed by the Monarch), and also I do somewhat trust the Monarch for choosing the Speaker properly, and if Wintermoot does screw up it goes to an open nomination
[1:44 PM] Chanku: Further it allows the UH to get to work quicker, if the Monarch chooses someone that is agreeable, it should lead to the UH getting to work in 24 hours, or less.
[1:44 PM] Chanku: If the person is not agreeable then it will take up 48 hours or less.
[1:45 PM] Chanku: Further the point of the bill is to allow the Speaker some more leeway in the running of the Underhusen.(edited)
[1:46 PM] Chanku: It acts as a way to attract people to the Underhusen, in addition to allowing the Underhusen to show it can handle work and responsbility.
[1:46 PM] Chanku: Also the Monarch is the only real permanent position that will always exist (unless something changes, somehow)
[1:47 PM] Chanku: Also it allows for the Speaker/Speaker PT to be recalled.
[1:47 PM] Chanku: and allows the Underhusen to have people dedicated to doing a specific task
[1:48 PM] Chanku: IE: Grammar Checking, Record Keeping, ect.
[1:48 PM] taulover: The Speaker is mandated by the Fundamental Laws actually, though the name/duties/etc of the position can change
[1:48 PM] Chanku: The Speaker position is vacated at the start of each session
[1:49 PM] Chanku: As such after the election of the next UH the Speaker Position is automatically vacant
[1:49 PM] Crushita: I mean in terms of time, if not having three extra days in a three month session is what causes failure I have some severe questions on what the heck you're doing. Speaker recall I have no problems with personally. You mention that this will show that the Underhusen can handle work and responsibility, what do you have in mind in that vein? If this bill passes what is your greater vision for these offices of the Underhusen?
[1:50 PM] Chanku: I've been talking with the Monarch over ways to invigorate the Underhusen/Storting, however the Monarch has expressed apprehension over the ability for the Storting/Underhusen to actually be able to handle and do what it would be given to do.(edited)
[1:51 PM] Chanku: Additionally the extra day to three extra days doesn't lead to failures
[1:51 PM] Chanku: however it does give more time to the Underhusen, and more time able to discuss bills and to discuss ideas
[1:53 PM] Chanku: My general  hope is to return some semblance of respect to the Underhusen, and the Storting as a whole. The Speaker's powers allows the Speaker to  steer the Underhusen and if people wish to be elected and become Speaker they can lay out a plan that they wish to lead the Underhusen forward, allowing for a more concrete agenda for the Underhusen each session.
[1:55 PM] Chanku: My hope is to also cut down on the people being elected because of memes, and to try and push the Underhusen into a direction that is more meritocratic and more active.
[1:56 PM] Crushita: So is the Monarch's apprehensions towards the Storting being able to handle what it would be given to do a reaction to your bill or is this bill a reaction to that apprehension? I'd also appreciate some more concrete answers on the offices. You mentioned Grammar checking, but Mathyland does that by his own volition anyway. If I'm correct, record keeping is already a responsibility of the Speaker no? While I appreciate attempting to change the direction of the Underhusen, beyond a few procedural things that already seem to be addressed the only direction for these offices to take in my mind are towards areas already covered by the Riksrad.
[1:56 PM] Chanku: the bill is a reaction to that apprehension
[1:57 PM] Chanku: additionally such offices are at the discretion of the Speaker, Taulover, however I have discussed more concrete offices with him.
[1:58 PM] taulover: The Procedural Rules actually don't explicitly assign any record keeping duties to the Speaker
[1:58 PM] Chanku: Additionally record keeping by the Speaker is...spotty at best
[1:58 PM] Chanku: If the Speaker is great at it, then it works fine
[1:58 PM] Chanku: otherwise we fail to get records actually updated, which is the more often result.
[1:59 PM] taulover: An alternative solution is to make record keeping an actual duty of the Speaker, as it had been in the past
[2:00 PM] taulover: Since if we only assigned it to an officer, that office could be dissolved or ignored
[2:00 PM] Chanku: That would still apply to the Speaker though
[2:00 PM] Chanku: Also Officers have standing to speak within the UH Halls, which does mean that an Office of Grammar Checking would allow Mathyland (or whoever is the Officer) can directly speak to the UH
[2:00 PM] Chanku: Also taulover(edited)
[2:01 PM] Chanku: the UH can make it a 'Permenant' Office (which I might rename to 'Standing' Office)
[2:01 PM] Chanku: which has to be filled by the Speaker
[2:01 PM] Chanku: and can only be dissolved by a vote
[2:01 PM] Chanku: additionally the Speaker can't just dissolve it or change it
[2:01 PM] Chanku: and the UH can just appoint someone by a vote
[2:01 PM] Chanku: (Or dismiss someone if they plain ignore it)
[2:01 PM] taulover: That doesn't solve the issue of the position's duties being ignored though, see: secretary
[2:02 PM] Crushita: Out of curiosity then, Chanku and taulover, what are your ideas then that you have discussed?
[2:02 PM] taulover: Chanku proposed a few offices
[2:02 PM] Wintermoot: watches the work of the Wintrean Senate and People
[2:03 PM] Chanku: :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:03 PM] Chanku: In any case
[2:03 PM] taulover: Wait Wintermoot what are your thoughts on Chanku's proposal for your new role in Speaker selection?
[2:03 PM] Crushita: ^
[2:04 PM] Crushita: Wintermoots opinion would be very helpful here, after all this directly involves him.
[2:04 PM] Chanku: Wintermoot was eh about it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: I discussed it with him prior to proposing it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: He doesn't seem to necessarily be for or against it
[2:04 PM] Chanku: (IIRC) moreso that he would do it if it was passed
[2:04 PM] Chanku: Albeit he may speak for himself more if he so desires.
[2:04 PM] Wintermoot: As I told Chanku, it seems awfully bureaucratic, but if it's what the UH wants then I don't oppose it
[2:05 PM] Crushita: The entire thing seems to be setting up a bureaucracy for an unknown purpose.
[2:05 PM] Chanku: I've stated my reasons prior
[2:06 PM] Wintermoot: Obviously it's to be rid of me :frowning: :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:06 PM] Chanku: If it was to be rid of you Wintermoot, it wouldn't give you power over Speaker Selection.
[2:06 PM] Wintermoot: Maybe that's so I lower my guard! :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:06 PM] Chanku: In any case, Taulover beyond the things I've proposed, you can't do much to ensure an office is doing what it is supposed to do at this time.
[2:07 PM] Wintermoot: In any case, the Storting is a vexing problem, indeed
[2:07 PM] Chanku: The solution I've proposed is to allow the UH to select someone who is better for the job, if it is being ignored
[2:07 PM] Chanku: if the entire UH is so unwilling to act in that matter, then the UH has a bigger problem on its hands
[2:07 PM] Crushita: Honestly my biggest concern at this point is probably how much I've had to ask about. You've apparently talked a great deal about this in private but haven't given the public this information despite it being quite pertinent to the bill in question.
[2:07 PM] taulover: Right, I'm just saying that an alternative is to simply make it a responsibility of the Speaker de jure
[2:08 PM] Chanku: My main issue is that the Speaker changes each session
[2:08 PM] Chanku: as such the Speaker's performance of duties can be...sometimes lackluster.(edited)
[2:09 PM] Chanku: Offices exist and Officers remain in their position until dismissed, which introduces stability into the workings of matters of the Underhusen
[2:09 PM] taulover: Ah right, you want Underhusen Officers to be filled by non-Skrifa
[2:09 PM] Chanku: Not all of them, but some of them.
[2:10 PM] Crushita: Also you haven't told me any solid plans for Underhusen officers despite tau himself saying that you have proposed a few. And I think this is the third time I've asked this question?
[2:10 PM] Chanku: Additionally the Offices I would like to see established is the Office of Information and the Office of Legal Counsel
[2:10 PM] Crushita: Oh perfect timing on my part :P
[2:10 PM] Chanku: The latter would be intended to be held by a non-skrifa
[2:10 PM] Chanku: The position is intended to provide impartial legal advice on a bill or action of the Speaker/UH
[2:11 PM] Chanku: Or provide legal advice regarding things that the UH is unsure of
[2:11 PM] taulover: I notice that you've left out the record keeping office
[2:12 PM] Chanku: and, in the very unlikely chance the UH/Speaker/Officers of the UH are sued for actions taken in the commission of their duties, they would represent them in the court.
[2:12 PM] Chanku: and taulover I'll get to that :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:12 PM] Chanku: The Office of Information would be an evolution of the Secretary of sorts
[2:12 PM] Chanku: The Office would be charged with making sure the public is informed, along with raising the profile of the UH/Storting
[2:13 PM] Chanku: they would, ideally, assist in the drafting of Orendi Articles involving the UH, as well as putting out dispatches and information regarding actions of the UH.
[2:13 PM] Chanku: There can also be an Office of Records, which would deal with record keeping duties
[2:13 PM] Chanku: Things like the Law Archives and the like
[2:14 PM] Chanku: Although that could just be given to an Officer within the Office of Information
[2:15 PM] Crushita: Well thats nice to know. My final question is if you could provide all this information in the citizens platform thread that Mathyland has made?
[2:16 PM] Chanku: I would be willing to do so.
[2:16 PM] Crushita: Thank you.
[2:44 PM] Chanku: @ Crushita I hope this is to your liking: http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=5233.new#new
[3:10 PM] Doc: seems a bit undemocratic, don't you think, to have skrifa essentially vote themselves into permanent positions, particularly since, as you've noted, people's interest in running for office seems to be on the decline
[3:11 PM] Chanku: I'm not sure I follow
[3:11 PM] Chanku: Additionally the majority of our system is undemocratic
[3:13 PM] Chanku: However, if your concern is of people just using the UH to vote themselves into an Officer position, the UH voting someone into an Officer position isn't permanent. Additionally if people don't like that person they can elect someone who will appoint (or at least vote for) someone better.(edited)
[3:14 PM] Chanku: and my hope is to be able to use the positions to increase interest, however I am trying to prepare for the worst case (four seat sessions for a while), while hoping for the best.
[3:27 PM] Chanku: @ Doc if you could elaborate on your objections, that would be great
[3:33 PM] Doc: perhaps i misread the 'permanent offices' part
[3:33 PM] Doc: are these not positions that are to be filled until such time as the UH sees fit to vacate them
[3:33 PM] Chanku: The Offices refer to the Offices themselves, not the Officers
[3:34 PM] Chanku: The Offices are to be filled by the Speaker, and are only able to be dissolved or amened by a vote of the UH(edited)
[3:34 PM] Chanku: The Officer serves at the discretion of the Speaker (and technically the Underhusen)(edited)
[3:35 PM] Chanku: A 'Standing Office' (the 'Permanent' Offices established by a vote) is simply an Office the UH deems as important enough to remove from the purview of the Speaker entirely

As for my own thoughts on the matter, I'm fine with the proposed officer system—it's definitely an interesting change that gives more power to the Speaker role and provides an opportunity to establish greater responsibilities and duties for the Underhusen.

However, I'm not too keen on the Speaker selection proposal. As others have said, I think the practical result is that everyone votes along with Wintermoot's choice. This hinders people from taking the initiative and trying to become Speaker, while also potentially reducing accountability and responsibility for poor Speakers (they could claim they never really wanted to be Speaker in the first place). Chanku has said that there is precedent for this, since the Monarch used to directly appoint the Speaker, but to me that seems to suggest an opposite sign: the Underhusen of the past moved away from this system, likely for good reason, so I'm not sure why we'd want to move back.

Chanku's alternate idea, that people simply vote against the nominee if they prefer someone else or if the nominee doesn't want to be Speaker, would require a rather large shift in Wintrean political culture toward tactical voting, which currently typically does not happen in the Underhusen. It may be difficult or unlikely to establish that voting Nay is not disrespectful to the Monarch or nominee. It also seems needlessly complex, since if this is the original intent, then a simple vote (as is present in the current system) seems far more streamlined.

In private discussion, Chanku has told me that he drew inspiration from the German system of Chancellor selection. However, the President essentially always nominates the leader of the majority party or coalition, and the vote itself is consequently a formality. With no party system in the Underhusen, I'm not sure this would work well.

The voting periods are shortened to make up for the added steps in the system. While this does have the potential to reduce the time to select the Speaker, I'm not sure 24 hours is long enough, considering the pace at which the Underhusen sometimes moves. And if shortening the selection period is the goal, then the total of 72 hours is still longer than the 48-hour period that would be the result of shortening the current system of nomination/voting periods of 24 hours.

This new system also does not address the ties issue in the event of an actual vote occurring, and arguably worsens the issue by explicitly requiring the vote to be closed after 24 hours.

That said, I'm definitely fine with the rest of the proposal, though there may be some minor issues (such as typos, inconsistencies, and unforeseen contingencies) that might need to be implemented before the bill goes to a vote. Given that the new officer system and Speaker powers seem to be the main focus of Chanku's proposal, it might be a good idea to focus on that.
Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: Chanku on June 13, 2018, 08:48:31 PM
Please note I have since removed the section concerning the Speaker Selection
Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: Wintermoot on June 13, 2018, 09:16:15 PM
Just throwing something out there...I didn't want to present alternative ideas for Speaker selection while Chanku was pursuing his, but what if candidates indicated whether they wanted to be Speaker or not when they stood for election, and then during the election the candidates could also vote for Speaker in ranked order. After the election, only candidates that won a seat would have their vote for Speaker counted, and with using ranked voting, if someone's first vote for Speaker was for someone that ultimately won't win election, it'd go down their list until we reached someone that did win an Underhusen seat.

That would allow the Underhusen to be set immediately after elections, effectively adding at least four days to the term. The only change is that it would move campaigning for Speaker to the election itself instead of just after.
Title: the Procedural Rules Speaker and Officers Amendment
Post by: Chanku on June 14, 2018, 12:44:48 AM
While I don't necessarily object to that, I do have to state that our laws as written do not allow for that.

You see, in order to enforce it we would need a Statutory Law as only the Storting by Statutory Law (or Amendment to the FL) has the authority to regulate and effect elections. However such a chance would be a procedural rules change, and thus require it passing just in the Underhusen. Procedural Rules also originate within the chamber they effect, and only require that Chamber's approval, to have a Procedural Rule go to the Overhusen would be technically illegal.

As such either the Procedural Rules would have to be amended stating that the Speaker Selection is to be done pursuant to a Statutory Law and have that law around, or we would have to amend the Fundamental Laws. I'm not particularly in favor of either of these, as doing the former would create a house of cards effect, and mean that any change to Speaker selection would potentially require OH approval, which would be against the Fundamental Laws. The latter would remove some of the flexibility we have currently.

Even discounting this the Fundamental Laws states:
Quote
4. Upon the conclusion of the election, the Underhusen shall, under supervision of the Monarch, select a member of its own to preside over the Underhusen. Further procedure shall be declared in the Procedural Rules of the Underhusen.
Which means a few things:
1. The Speaker can only be selected by the elected Underhusen after the election
2. If the Monarch ever hands elections to someone else to handle, they wouldn't be allowed to handle the Speaker votes and instead it would require the Monarch to do so.

Of course one could argue that the Further procedure clause could allow for this to be legitimate if the Procedural Rules states it, however there is still the issue with the requirement of it being supervised by the Monarch.