Wintreath Regional Community

A Link to the Past - Archives => The Registry of Things Past - Historic Archive => Frosthold Castle - Wintreath Government => Topic started by: Arenado on February 19, 2016, 01:15:23 AM

Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Arenado on February 19, 2016, 01:15:23 AM
I will be introducing this to the UH in the coming days, preferably before the end of our terms.


The Storting Reformation Amendment Act

1. Article I of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
Article I: The Storting

1. The legislative authorities and duties of Wintreath shall be vested in a unicameral legislature called the Storting.

Membership of the Storting
2. The Storting shall consist of all Citizens of Wintreath.

3. The Storting shall have the authority to suspend a member's voting rights for a period of no more than three months at a time with a 3/4 supermajority vote of those voting. At the conclusion of the three-month period, the Storting may consider an additional suspension.

Storting Officers
2. The Speaker shall serve as Presiding Officer of the Storting.

3. The Storting shall have the right to create, modify, and remove any other Officer positions. The Storting shall have the authority to delegate duties to these Officers, except for those duties which require the full participation of the Storting.

4. All Officer positions shall come up for election on the first day of December, March, June, and September, and elections shall last for a period of seven days, after which the winners shall take their Offices. All Citizens whose voting rights are not suspended as of the end of the election may run for any Officer position.

The Legislative Process
5. All legislation shall be introduced in the Storting, which shall have the right to discuss and amend the legislation before putting it to a vote. Unless specified otherwise in this document, legislation shall pass the Storting by majority vote of those voting.

6. Upon passage by the Storting, the Speaker shall present the legislation to the Monarch for Royal Assent. Legislation signed by the Monarch shall become law immediately, while legislation vetoed by the Monarch shall not become law unless the Storting votes to override the veto with a 2/3 supermajority vote of those voting. In the event that the Monarch neither signs or vetoes the legislation, it shall become law one week after passage by the Storting.

7. Legislation concerning matters subject to alternative approval methods as approved by both the Storting and Monarch (or the previous Overhusen chamber) shall be exempt from Section 6 and instead follow the methods specified in the relevant legislation. Legislation concerning the Procedural Rules of the Storting, the voting rights of members, and Officers of the Storting shall also be exempt from Section 6 and shall be considered law upon passage by the Storting.

Authorities and Duties of the Storting
8. The Storting shall have the authority to pass legislation, repeal previously passed legislation, propose amendments to these Fundamental Laws, and take any other action deemed necessary and proper to execute the authorities and duties vested in the Storting by these Fundamental Laws.

9. The Storting shall have the authority to create and revise their own procedural rules.

10. The Storting shall have the authority to declare war upon another region or organization.

11. The Storting shall have the authority to ratify or reject treaties with other regions and organizations.

12. The Storting shall have the authority to issue non-binding resolutions expressing the opinion of the Storting in relation to all matters.

13. The Storting shall have the authority to interpret these Fundamental Laws and statutory laws and consider the constitutionality over laws brought before the Storting, determine rulings and verdicts in regard to violations of these laws, and determine punishments for violations of these laws within the parameters of these Fundamental Laws and any other laws.

14. The Storting shall have the authority to issue advisory opinions on matters of constitutionality and legality to anyone whom the Storting has determined has standing to seek an advisory opinion.

15. The Storting shall have the authority to create and revise the rules of judicial proceedings for judicial panels.

2. Article III Section 1 of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
1. Upon the filing of cases within the Storting, a judicial panel shall convene to determine whether to accept the case and then to make an initial ruling if the case is accepted. The judicial panel shall be presided over by the Monarch or their designee as Chief Justice, and the Speaker of the Storting and a random Citizen who has voted in the last four votes of the Storting shall serve as Associate Justices. In the event that no Citizen has participated in the last four votes, a random Citizen from those has participated in the most consecutive votes including the last shall be chosen instead.

3. Article IV Section 2 of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
2. Elections shall follow the optional preferential voting system, and the results shall be determined by either via instant runoff in single-seat positions or single transferable vote in multi-seat positions. Elections shall be overseen by the Monarch or the Monarch's designee. No person shall oversee an election in which they are running.

3. Article IV Sections 4-6 of the Fundamental Laws shall be removed, and subsequent sections renumbered accordingly.

4. Article VII shall be amended as follows:

Quote
1. No section under Administration may be amended without the consent of The Winter Nomad.

2.The Storting shall have the authority to propose amendments to these Fundamental Laws by a two-thirds supermajority vote of those voting, after which amendments shall require consent of the Monarch to be considered ratified.

5. Upon ratification, this Amendment shall go into effect on 8 March 2016, with Speaker elections beginning one week prior.

Does anyone have any objections?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 19, 2016, 01:21:39 AM
Is this Moot's Open Assembly idea?

Also, the code for quoting stuff is:
Code: [Select]
[quote]stuff[/quote]
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Michi on February 19, 2016, 01:23:40 AM
Quote
things
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Michi on February 19, 2016, 02:36:52 AM
I wanted to address something that was just said in the UH regarding this:

Quote
I really think that we should consider putting in a month or so wait period before persons can be members of the Storting. The situation with Red/Sci is exactly what it would prevent.

Wanting a month wait period or post requirement is a valid concern for reasons of activity concern.

However, you could put a year requirement on there, and chances are still likely that you could get another person like him in the Storting.  Time won't turn away people of any type, it'll just turn away those that aren't active on the forums.

The only way this could really be done is by doing background checks, which is somewhat impossible to do with every candidate, not to mention it would be a long and exhausting process, and even then all of the information about them wouldn't be available to us.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Wintermoot on February 19, 2016, 02:43:04 AM
I read where the Underhusen debated a waiting period before they realized the amendment wasn't finished, and there didn't seem to be consensus on the idea...nor was there any further discussion about it in my topic even when I invited more discussion about it, so I let it drop.

I would say that Sci is the first instance of those sort of circumstances happening, while we've had a number of people run for Underhusen right after joining and do a great job of it. I'm not sure we would be doing a service to the region by not allowing those people to participate for a month over one event, no matter how major that one event was.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: tatte on February 19, 2016, 05:13:12 AM
I would appreciate if we could, especially in anything associated with our legislation, refrain from specifically bringing Sci up. I'm not questioning anything that his alleged actions will spawn in the near future, but simply the detail that we make references to him at every turn. That is simply unnecessary and will only keep the matter afloat much longer than it should be.

On another note, since this seems like a good opportunity: I would like to see some amendments to what candidates running for positions need to disclose by default in every election, namely their active/current affiliations with other regions. This is not overly common topic to go over during the elections but could (and should) interest the voters.

Overall I think we could at least discuss the possibilities of more tightly regulating the election process, as we have seen elections with practically no campaigning what so ever, and that doesn't give off very good picture of our government. I'll go ahead and propose that campaign threads are made mandatory to maintain eligibility to get elected, noting that directing more efforts to our elections would score us credibility as a region and promote activity.

We could also streamline the process of filling any sudden empty UH seats by simply making it so that the position is offered to the person who got the next most votes in the most recent election. This would further serve towards increasing the weight of the elections.

Finally I would like to invoke discussion about a concept of minimum votes required in elections, applied either to entire vote count or votes received by an individual candidate. Opening the possibility of dismissing an entire result of an election would give us a chance to appoint a temporary short term UH made up of officials selected by other means, having the cogs turning while the community recoups.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Michi on February 19, 2016, 05:18:34 AM
I agree with this.  While the concern was understandable, we need to stop mentioning him.  Everything is done and over with, and again, continued mentioning is not very courteous to the others.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: PB on February 19, 2016, 06:36:49 PM
I would appreciate if we could, especially in anything associated with our legislation, refrain from specifically bringing Sci up. I'm not questioning anything that his alleged actions will spawn in the near future, but simply the detail that we make references to him at every turn. That is simply unnecessary and will only keep the matter afloat much longer than it should be.

On another note, since this seems like a good opportunity: I would like to see some amendments to what candidates running for positions need to disclose by default in every election, namely their active/current affiliations with other regions. This is not overly common topic to go over during the elections but could (and should) interest the voters.

Overall I think we could at least discuss the possibilities of more tightly regulating the election process, as we have seen elections with practically no campaigning what so ever, and that doesn't give off very good picture of our government. I'll go ahead and propose that campaign threads are made mandatory to maintain eligibility to get elected, noting that directing more efforts to our elections would score us credibility as a region and promote activity.

We could also streamline the process of filling any sudden empty UH seats by simply making it so that the position is offered to the person who got the next most votes in the most recent election. This would further serve towards increasing the weight of the elections.

Finally I would like to invoke discussion about a concept of minimum votes required in elections, applied either to entire vote count or votes received by an individual candidate. Opening the possibility of dismissing an entire result of an election would give us a chance to appoint a temporary short term UH made up of officials selected by other means, having the cogs turning while the community recoups.

I really like your ideas about elections, but perhaps they should be included in the Procedural Rules or a separate election bylaws instead of the Fundamental Law amendment?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 19, 2016, 07:23:27 PM
I wanted to address something that was just said in the UH regarding this:

Quote
I really think that we should consider putting in a month or so wait period before persons can be members of the Storting. The situation with Red/Sci is exactly what it would prevent.

Wanting a month wait period or post requirement is a valid concern for reasons of activity concern.

However, you could put a year requirement on there, and chances are still likely that you could get another person like him in the Storting.  Time won't turn away people of any type, it'll just turn away those that aren't active on the forums.

The only way this could really be done is by doing background checks, which is somewhat impossible to do with every candidate, not to mention it would be a long and exhausting process, and even then all of the information about them wouldn't be available to us.
I suggested something along these lines that might be something of a compromise:

Quote
At the moment the only real thing I'd like to see added is a one week period before new citizens are accepted into the Storting and a three week trial period after that in which a majority decision can revoke their voting rights for another month, whereupon they go through the whole induction process again after that month is over.

The one week grace period allows us to get to know new members and begin to get a feel of their character et cetera, as well as serving to - in some small way, admittedly - test the commitment they have to our region. A one week wait isn't off-putting by any means, and it's an expected level of activity if they're serious about joining and taking part in the legislative aspects of our community.

A trial period is, I think, the best compromise between a month wait for them to join and the concerns raised about inactivity. A three week period where their suggestions are, if not scrutinised per say, but definitely observed with an eye to making sure they're taking it seriously et cetera et cetera :) If at any time during that time period they prove unworthy of the rights held by Storting citizens, they get the month ban.

I reckon that works better than keeping new citizens from participating fully in the region for an entire month, but I'm happy to hear thoughts from the rest of you on how to improve this idea.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: PB on February 19, 2016, 07:37:47 PM
One thing I don't think any of us want to see is an open assembly that becomes an echo chamber.  Giving the Storting the ability to silence a new member with a simple vote is dangerous because it could be used to stifle a minority voice.  What criteria or standards of conduct are there going to be to define when someone is "taking it seriously" enough for the Speaker/majority/status quo? 
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 19, 2016, 07:46:38 PM
One thing I don't think any of us want to see is an open assembly that becomes an echo chamber.  Giving the Storting the ability to silence a new member with a simple vote is dangerous because it could be used to stifle a minority voice.  What criteria or standards of conduct are there going to be to define when someone is "taking it seriously" enough for the Speaker/majority/status quo? 
Hmm...

Is there a general conduct thread for the Underhusen at the moment? If not, I'd imagine the 'taking it seriously' caveat would pretty much be akin to saying 'adhere to the forum code of conduct'. Obviously, the Storting is a chamber for the discussion of legislation, so it's important that in asking people to respect one another's opinions we don't also attempt to prevent any sort of dissent from the majority opinion by accident.

I'm open to suggestions - perhaps add a section to the Act that's something along the lines of "proper conduct", with the first point being follow the forum rules/code of conduct, a second being respect other people's opinions and a third being remember the purpose of the Storting is to debate things, and that by nature debate requires dissent.

If someone steps outside those boundaries, and I don't imagine it'd happen often, there's a guideline for what stands and what doesn't and how to go about suspending their voting power until they learn to keep a level head during discussions.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: PB on February 19, 2016, 07:51:55 PM
Now that we're talking about it, I don't think there is any general code of conduct for the Storting.  I would argue it would be more important to have one as we transition to an open assembly.  It would also help un-blur the line between good conduct and having the right opinion.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 19, 2016, 07:55:49 PM
Now that we're talking about it, I don't think there is any general code of conduct for the Storting.  I would argue it would be more important to have one as we transition to an open assembly.  It would also help un-blur the line between good conduct and having the right opinion.
Yeah, perhaps make the '3 week trial period behavioural standards' less of that and more of a general code of conduct for the entire body? That way, we've got a guideline of how to act/how to go about disciplinary stuff if the need should arise, and we can just use that for the trial period standards without too much trouble.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 19, 2016, 07:58:54 PM
The only time I personally would like to vote for someone to lose voting and posting rights for awhile is when a person clearly trolls, flames or personally attacks, such as by calling people "idiotic" when I or someone else disagree with them.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 19, 2016, 08:01:04 PM
I'd be much the same, I think. For the most part, I don't see our community simply voting to remove someone's participation rights because they're disagreeing with what the majority wants, but it makes sense to have a few simple Do's and Don'ts codified into the Storting's establishing Act. General attitude pointers more than anything else, really.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Wintermoot on February 19, 2016, 08:01:39 PM
I included the ability to strip members of voting rights as a replacement for the recall procedure...obviously you can't recall members of an open assembly, and at least at the moment it's not very clear what the criteria for being removed are or were, seeing as Chanku is the only member that was recalled. My hope was that the large majority needed would be enough to deter attempts to remove people's voting rights over politics.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Gerrick on February 21, 2016, 04:26:09 AM
UPDATE!

The Underhusen will be voting on this act as it appears in the UH thread very soon, so if anybody has anything they'd like to say before it gets voted on by the UH, they should say it now.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 21, 2016, 05:06:55 AM
I'd like my suggestions regarding the trial period etc discussed, as well as the code of conduct thing.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 06:07:30 AM
Yeah, I'd say it would be best to extend debate.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: PB on February 21, 2016, 06:11:05 AM
It would be nice to have some comment by a skrifa about the recent discussion before yinz proceed.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on February 21, 2016, 06:12:29 AM
Laurentus: Idiotic no one would call someone idotic...except maybe an idotic person :P (I'm joking :P)
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 06:24:43 AM
Ye nows what I means.  >:(
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on February 21, 2016, 06:25:05 AM
I was just trying to make a joke :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 06:26:34 AM
*Facepalm*

And I wasn't? :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on February 21, 2016, 06:27:08 AM
That would explain the ye...
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 06:28:52 AM
Ye don say?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on February 21, 2016, 06:32:27 AM
Now you are just being plain idiotic :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Arenado on February 21, 2016, 09:37:30 AM
Since the debate was extended, @Weissreich, about a code of conduct what specifically did you have in mind?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: tatte on February 21, 2016, 09:50:08 AM
Why wouldn't you take this discussion to the candidates instead of wasting time waiting for the elections to run their course? Of course they might just as well take the time to bring their two cents here just the same way they would do if they'd already be in the UH, but given that the last replies here are spam (from candidates, no less) a more focused summons for the candidates might be in order.

What would be better for campaigning than actually taking part in what's currently being discussed by the UH? And before someone finally snaps and says that what does any of this even matter if UH will soon cease to exist: Skrifas and candidates alike should focus in the present. As long as there is an UH, there... well is an UH. Chanku probably corrects me if I'm wrong, but I think the public can recall Skrifas that don't appear to be fulfilling expectations.

Those expectations are only rising as the reform is ever so heavily breathing down everyone's neck.

//Damn North slipped between me and those mentioned posts. ._.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 04:20:48 PM
Wait, are you implying I'm not taking this seriously?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: tatte on February 21, 2016, 04:27:09 PM
I'm pushing buttons and watching what happens. Do you feel like I could imply you don't?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 04:42:50 PM
I didn't feel like it was implying something, I'm saying there was definitely an implication, but I couldn't determine exactly who/what it was referring to, so now I'm gaining more info.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: tatte on February 21, 2016, 04:49:38 PM
Oh, well I just pointed out that half of the page 2 was horribly off topic. :D
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on February 21, 2016, 04:56:22 PM
Why wouldn't you take this discussion to the candidates instead of wasting time waiting for the elections to run their course? Of course they might just as well take the time to bring their two cents here just the same way they would do if they'd already be in the UH, but given that the last replies here are spam (from candidates, no less) a more focused summons for the candidates might be in order.

What would be better for campaigning than actually taking part in what's currently being discussed by the UH? And before someone finally snaps and says that what does any of this even matter if UH will soon cease to exist: Skrifas and candidates alike should focus in the present. As long as there is an UH, there... well is an UH. Chanku probably corrects me if I'm wrong, but I think the public can recall Skrifas that don't appear to be fulfilling expectations.

Those expectations are only rising as the reform is ever so heavily breathing down everyone's neck.

//Damn North slipped between me and those mentioned posts. ._.
@tatte I would have, but seeing as how it looms over us, I wanted to ensure Skrifa didn't base their vote on whether a candidate agrees with the open assembly or not.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 21, 2016, 10:35:48 PM
Since the debate was extended, @Weissreich, about a code of conduct what specifically did you have in mind?
I had a moment of "why have you tagged me in a topic I can't reply in" and then realised this was the CitPlat rather than UH.

Before I address that, I'd like to say: @tatte - stop pushing buttons for the hell of it, it's unbecoming :)

Anyway, with the Code of Conduct; I'm not saying it should be "YOU HAVE TO BEHAVE LIKE X" and "YOU CANNOT DO Y", more along the lines of a general "Please treat others with respect", "Please remember that other people's opinions may differ from yours", that sort of thing. I'd be happy to hear what other people think should/could be included in this sort of CoC.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 10:51:41 PM
Some buttons need to get pushed. After all, if someone can't handle tatte's button-pushing, they'll explode in the UH when people have fundamental disagreements and things get very heated. :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on February 21, 2016, 11:03:27 PM
Some buttons need to get pushed. After all, if someone can't handle tatte's button-pushing, they'll explode in the UH when people have fundamental disagreements and things get very heated. :P
Then I guess we'll need a Code of Conduct to ensure that if/when that happens we have a disciplinary procedure to ensure it doesn't happen twice :p

I understand people's reluctance when it comes to a Code of Conduct, but as I have stated several times now I'm not talking about a be-all and end-all, this is how it works and fuck you if you try anything different Code of Conduct. I'm talking about a general list of recommendations and a process through which we can discipline people when they step out of line. If people are so concerned about a CoC, HAVE YOUR SAY AND TRY AND COME UP WITH ONE THAT SATISFIES YOU AS WELL.

Debate, people, is between more than just one person. If you don't put your word in, you'll undoubtedly be unhappy with the result.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on February 21, 2016, 11:20:19 PM
I'm working on something right now that I'll post in response to that very topic in the campaign threads, but I'll just say I've seen that closing a topic down for a few hours has proven effective at giving people the chance to collect themselves and calm down. Sapphiron did this in the Double Post game, I did it during the GM selection topic in the RP Guild, and Moot recently did it with one of the topics here. That's the direction I'll be taking with my proposal.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 06:53:41 PM
@Wuufu and @Colberius X have just brought up some really awkward wording in the bill we need to fix ASAP. We've grown inattentive with the convention dragging on this long.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
I'll also mention the current UH.

@Barnes
@BraveSirRobin
@North
@Gerrick

Also, I'm really tired and basically on auto-pilot. I'll probably have something worthwhile to contribute tomorrow. Just typing this message is requiring all my attention.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 03, 2016, 07:25:55 PM
Will changing the wording affect the vote?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 07:28:12 PM
If they're opposed to an open assembly, I doubt it. But we shouldn't have such awkward language as a matter of principle.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 07:29:53 PM
Also, it's already at vote before them. Were I in their shoes, I'd fail the bill just because of that error, even if I agreed with the overall content.

EDIT: Also, sorry for the double post. I'm used to Werewolf now. :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 03, 2016, 07:42:58 PM
We could always amend the bill in the open assembly. That way we don't have to reratify the bill if it passes the Overhusen.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 07:54:31 PM
I'm against that on principle. We should at least deliver a bill that is as free from flaws as we can possibly make it. We have time.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 03, 2016, 08:07:19 PM
You're right. And plus, because the public now knows of the error, they might be more inclined to reject it based on that principle alone.

Overhusen members who have not voted (@Wuufu, @Wintermoot), I implore you to reject the bill so we can amend the error before submitting it to the public. We will then expedite the voting process so it can reach the Overhusen again by this time tomorrow.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 08:12:58 PM
I think the prudent thing to do is to go over this bill again in a lot of detail, and point out anything remotely odd/concerning/noticeable. Which means no expedition. :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 03, 2016, 08:20:55 PM
But we need one dedicated time period where all of us are together in order to do that. If we set the debate length to be longer, people will just get around to revising it "whenever" instead of utilizing the immediately pressing concern.

House of Cards season 1 spoiler
Or if this is anything like the Underwood education bill, we could sit down, have you delegate from South Carolina, and have us analyze the whole bill line by line with the heads of the teachers' unions. But that's still pressing for time.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 03, 2016, 08:35:41 PM
Well, we don't have to go over a monstrous tome such as that education bill, we just have to fix a few lines. :P

And I'm not saying we should extend debate, but we should at the very least use that two-day debate period to its fullest extent and each try to come up with some sort of potential problem.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Gerrick on March 04, 2016, 02:08:01 AM
...how did we all miss that? Guess it's time I read through it another ten more times.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 02:15:25 AM
If y'all want I'll read through it and point out anything...even though I dislike this bill a lot...
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 02:22:24 AM
Going by the bill located at the start of this thread, I noticed there are many things missing...

1) Either Section 12 of Article I in the amendment should be stricken out OR we should remove initiatives, as the initiatives become useless at that point...

2) Sections 13 and 14 of Article I should be removed, they serve no purpose and are a bit confusing, given that the entire Storting is the citizenry in this model. It's useless here.

3) Section 13 should be added into Article III as located in the amendment.

Also the layout of the amendment is...odd. Mainly the fact that the changes should probably not just go over the ENTIRE Article, but only the affected Sections of the Articles. Provides a better catalog of changes when going back and reviewing changes.

EDIT: Also we need to fix the recalls to focus on the Officers of the UH, not Skrifa :\
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 02:28:26 AM
Use this version of the bill:
Quote
The Storting Reformation Amendment Act

1. Article I of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
Article I: The Storting

1. The legislative authorities and duties of Wintreath shall be vested in a unicameral legislature called the Storting.

Membership of the Storting
2. The Storting shall consist of all Citizens of Wintreath.

3. The Storting shall have the authority to suspend a member's voting rights for a period of no more than three months at a time with a 3/4 supermajority vote of those voting. At the conclusion of the three-month period, the Storting may consider an additional suspension.

Storting Officers
4. The Speaker shall serve as Presiding Officer of the Storting.

5. The Storting shall have the right to create, modify, and remove any other Officer positions. The Storting shall have the authority to delegate duties to these Officers, except for those duties which require the full participation of the Storting.

6. All Officer positions shall come up for election on the first day of January, April, July, and October, and elections shall last for a period of seven days, after which the winners shall take their Offices. All Citizens whose voting rights are not suspended as of the end of the election may run for any Officer position.

The Legislative Process
7. All legislation shall be introduced in the Storting, which shall have the right to discuss and amend the legislation before putting it to a vote. Unless specified otherwise in this document, legislation shall pass the Storting by majority vote of those voting.

8. Upon passage by the Storting, the Speaker shall present the legislation to the Monarch for Royal Assent. Legislation signed by the Monarch shall become law immediately, while legislation vetoed by the Monarch shall not become law unless the Storting votes to override the veto with a 2/3 supermajority vote of those voting. In the event that the Monarch neither signs or vetoes the legislation, it shall become law one week after passage by the Storting.

9. Legislation concerning matters subject to alternative approval methods as approved by both the Storting and Monarch (or the previous Overhusen chamber) shall be exempt from Section 6 and instead follow the methods specified in the relevant legislation. Legislation concerning the Procedural Rules of the Storting, the voting rights of members, and Officers of the Storting shall also be exempt from Section 6 and shall be considered law upon passage by the Storting.

Authorities and Duties of the Storting
10. The Storting shall have the authority to pass legislation, repeal previously passed legislation, propose amendments to these Fundamental Laws, and take any other action deemed necessary and proper to execute the authorities and duties vested in the Storting by these Fundamental Laws.

11. The Storting shall have the authority to create and revise their own procedural rules.

12. The Storting shall have the authority to declare war upon another region or organization.

13. The Storting shall have the authority to ratify or reject treaties with other regions and organizations.

14. The Storting shall have the authority to issue non-binding resolutions expressing the opinion of the Storting in relation to all matters.

15. The Storting shall have the authority to interpret these Fundamental Laws and statutory laws and consider the constitutionality over laws brought before the Storting, determine rulings and verdicts in regard to violations of these laws, and determine punishments for violations of these laws within the parameters of these Fundamental Laws and any other laws.

16. The Storting shall have the authority to issue advisory opinions on matters of constitutionality and legality to anyone whom the Storting has determined has standing to seek an advisory opinion.

17. The Storting shall have the authority to create and revise the rules of judicial proceedings for judicial panels.

2. Article III Section 1 of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
1. Upon the filing of cases within the Storting, a judicial panel shall convene to determine whether to accept the case and then to make an initial ruling if the case is accepted. The judicial panel shall be presided over by the Monarch or their designee as Chief Justice, and the Speaker of the Storting and a random Citizen who has voted in the last four votes of the Storting shall serve as Associate Justices. In the event that no Citizen has participated in the last four votes, a random Citizen from those who have participated in the most consecutive votes including the last shall be chosen instead.

3. Article IV Section 2 of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:

Quote
2. Elections shall follow the optional preferential voting system, and the results shall be determined by either via instant runoff in single-seat positions or single transferable vote in multi-seat positions. Elections shall be overseen by the Monarch or the Monarch's designee. No person shall oversee an election in which they are running.

3. Article IV Sections 4-6 of the Fundamental Laws shall be removed, and subsequent sections renumbered accordingly.

4. Article VII shall be amended as follows:

Quote
1. No section under Administration may be amended without the consent of The Winter Nomad.

2.The Storting shall have the authority to propose amendments to these Fundamental Laws by a two-thirds supermajority vote of those voting, after which amendments shall require consent of the Monarch to be considered ratified.

5. Upon ratification, this Amendment shall go into effect on 8 April 2016, with Speaker elections beginning one week prior.

The only change I made was the one to fix the awkward wording "has" to "who have".
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 02:57:49 AM
Even using that my issues still stand. :\
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:03:25 AM
I'm just trying to find out where the problems you're locating are.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 03:04:31 AM
If you compare with the Current FL.

The first two are in Section 1 of the amendment. :\
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:06:47 AM
14 and 16? Those are the only ones where I notice possible redundancies.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 03:11:59 AM
Ah yeah sorry. I mean 14, 15, and 16

Quote
14. The Storting shall have the authority to issue non-binding resolutions expressing the opinion of the Storting in relation to all matters.

15. The Storting shall have the authority to interpret these Fundamental Laws and statutory laws and consider the constitutionality over laws brought before the Storting, determine rulings and verdicts in regard to violations of these laws, and determine punishments for violations of these laws within the parameters of these Fundamental Laws and any other laws.

16. The Storting shall have the authority to issue advisory opinions on matters of constitutionality and legality to anyone whom the Storting has determined has standing to seek an advisory opinion.
15 and 16 should either be deleted or added to Article III.

14 should be deleted or we should remove the current initiative process in our current Funamental Laws as it is redundant.

We should also fix our Recall procedure.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:15:51 AM
The initiative process is already removed. This bill completely guts Article I and rewrites it, thereby removing the process of recall (by replacing it with a suspension of voting rights) and initiative.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 03:17:16 AM
Initiatives and Recalls aren't under Article I though, it's Article IV...

Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: taulover on March 04, 2016, 03:25:47 AM
Initiatives and Recalls aren't under Article I though, it's Article IV...
I believe that's already covered:
Quote
3. Article IV Sections 4-6 of the Fundamental Laws shall be removed, and subsequent sections renumbered accordingly.
Edit: If we're changing as well, it should probably be changed to:
Quote
3. Article IV Sections 4-11 of the Fundamental Laws shall be removed.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:28:16 AM
It was, but the recall process was under sections IV.7-11, and I took a look at the rest of Article IV and I realized it had to be completely revised:
Quote
3. Article IV of the Fundamental Laws shall be amended as follows:
Quote
1. Only Storting members of Wintreath shall be eligible to vote in elections, stand for elected office, or assume any elected office. The Monarch may not stand for or assume any elected office.
2. Elections shall follow the optional preferential voting system, and the results shall be determined by either via instant runoff in single-seat positions or single transferable vote in multi-seat positions.
3. Elections shall be overseen by the Monarch or the Monarch's designee. No person shall oversee an election in which they are running.
4. In Storting Officer elections, voting members shall have the option to post their votes publicly or send their votes to the person overseeing the election via private message.
I hope this is better. This also fixes a numbering problem in which there were two 3. sections under the main bill heading.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 03:29:11 AM
What about sections 7-11 of Article IV?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:32:16 AM
They were the recall portions. They're removed because the bill changes the entire Article IV to the above.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: taulover on March 04, 2016, 03:33:18 AM
What about sections 7-11 of Article IV?
Wouldn't this suffice?
Quote
4. Article IV Sections 5-11 of the Fundamental Laws shall be removed.
They were the recall portions. They're removed because the bill changes the entire Article IV to the above.
The version of the bill you just posted says 4-6 and renumber the rest.

Edit: I appear to have misread your post. In this case, I think that we need to be clear that the rest of Article IV is removed.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 04, 2016, 03:33:58 AM
Shouldn't we still have some recall procedure for elected positions though?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 04, 2016, 03:36:50 AM
Oh! If that's what you mean, I can draft something, but we'll have to determine if we should allow recalls first; that'll have to be more of a group consensus.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 04, 2016, 04:16:12 AM
We definitely need recalls.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Arenado on March 04, 2016, 08:24:55 AM
I'm in favour of recalls.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: BraveSirRobin on March 04, 2016, 03:33:09 PM
I'm in favour of recalls.
Yes, I am as well.  What else do we need to revise in order to ensure a precise syntax in the bill this time?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Gerrick on March 05, 2016, 12:49:35 AM
I agree with ability for recalls as well.

Something I noticed:
Quote
9. Legislation concerning matters subject to alternative approval methods as approved by both the Storting and Monarch (or the previous Overhusen chamber) shall be exempt from Section 6 and instead follow the methods specified in the relevant legislation. Legislation concerning the Procedural Rules of the Storting, the voting rights of members, and Officers of the Storting shall also be exempt from Section 6 and shall be considered law upon passage by the Storting.
I believe this should be in reference to Section 7 not 6. I think it was not changed when the numbering was fixed, correct?

Also, I assume the creation of officers other than the Speaker will just be through the new Procedural Rules?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 05, 2016, 04:44:19 AM
I reintroduced the bill into the Underhusen, complete with a section on recalls and an updated I.9 to change the "Section 6" wording to "Section 7". Since I ended up renumbering the sections after you initially pointed out that error, I take responsibility for not updating that section, apparently based on other numbers. I suppose you have a knack for pointing out numerical errors.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 05, 2016, 08:15:41 PM
@Wintermoot
The recall section, while preserved, would not be usable, because it's only for the UH...which means that you could not recall any elected person.

So you have to change the recall section completely
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 06:15:53 PM
I've also forgotten if we stripped out initiatives or not. If we haven't, then that needs to be done...

Also here is an important question: "Would the court have the authority to overturn a suspension from Voting?" (it should, in all honesty IMO). On the matter of Speaker PT selection, I personally believe we should just have an appointed Speaker PT, and reuse our current PT selection procedure. This way we never have an issue of "Well no one else ran."

Further I also have an issue with leaving it to the Open Assembly to decide, if we are specifying that the PT is selected by the person with the second most votes in the Fundamental Laws, then we MUST specify what happens if there are not two people running, or if no one else gets any votes. Else we will get a very broken system.

Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 07:30:05 PM
I fully agree with you on the PT selection process needing to be mapped out in the bill. For the appointed PT, however, it seemed a tad unclear: did you mean appointed by the Speaker or by someone else? I presume the Speaker, but it was still rather ambiguous.

As for the court overturning of the suspension, what you're saying makes sense, but you have to keep in mind that the court consists of members of the Storting, the same members who potentially voted to suspend someone's voting rights in the first place.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 07:33:21 PM
No, by "leave it to the OA" I meant that we wouldn't touch upon the Speaker PT at all. They'd sort it out themselves when the time came. It's going to be such a big decision that we would be pretty presumptuous to put something in place for it right now.

Also, by what right would the court overturn the suspension of someone's voting rights, when a super-majority had it stripped?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 07:45:12 PM
The only reason we have to include the concept of a Speaker pro tem is because of your suggestion to allow recalls after the twenty-first day before elections, seconded by @Gerrick, who suggested that there still be recalls after that time, albeit with no elections. That necessitates someone having the power of Acting Speaker until the next regular election, which presumably would be a Speaker PT or equivalent, unless a different selection process is made clear.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 07:49:37 PM
To prevent the tyranny of the majority. We could also very well require that anyone that voted other than abstain in a motion to strip someone of their rights (if it is being tried by the court) would be inelligble for judicial duty.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 08:46:19 PM
@Barnes, that is also something best discussed by the OA. If we make too many big changes to this bill now, we'd be taking something that had a good chance of passing and making it a bit more uncertain.

@Chanku, it's fairly safe to say that a two-thirds majority would make it pretty damn binding, and a court overturning something like that would be a bad idea. You'd have to create an whole new legal framework for when it's acceptable for the court to overturn such a decision. And we all know how that will turn out: we'll bicker and argue for 2 years and then just agree to disagree on what that framework should actually be. You may find it distasteful, but I do believe this is the best possible course of action. "Tyranny by majority" doesn't scare me outside of security.

EDIT: Actually, not even 2/3, it's 3/4. That's much better.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 08:58:54 PM
So are you saying to nix the clause and include the recall procedure as is?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 09:23:15 PM
Yeah, let's just fix all the smaller things, and leave the truly big stuff up to the OA where it belongs.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 09:27:21 PM
Fair. I see your point that it could be contended by the Citizenry and end up not passing if we were to impose too large of changes, but some of the laws that might be proposed are too fundamental to be simply "procedural rules". But I suppose that by then, the Storting would then just create new amendments to the Fundamental Laws rather than the Storting Procedure.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 09:27:34 PM
I would say that we should probably debate the whole Judicial thing, since it would be rather important to settle now, in order to prevent any issues of the running of the OA.

And yes, the Tyranny of the Majority may be harder to get to, however it is still possible. Further what if it was to be found that the vote was somehow manipulated to cause someone's right to vote to be revoked.

If we are creating an Open Assembly, with the ability to prevent someone from voting at all (something I fundamentally disagree with, as to me it goes against the entire purpose of an Open Assembly), then we need to make sure that there is a balance to prevent it from potentially being abused. Also unless there is a waiting period, someone could just bring in a lot of people from outside of the region to sway a vote in a revocation of voting rights...
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 09:45:09 PM
The Monarch has the discretion of granting Citizenship, so it would be most likely that he would notice something was suspicious in regards to ganging up on a member to kick them out. Wintreath has dozens of citizens at present, meaning dozens more would be required to obtain the supermajority based on recruitment alone.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 09:47:29 PM
Well it depends on if the super-majority is of those voting, or on the citizens themselves...if it's the former then we should have that safeguard, if it's the latter then that is a generally bad idea.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 09:48:53 PM
That last bit about the possibility for some foreign region to turn our laws against us suddenly is the only part of your argument I agree with, but I'm done trying to convince people that's a problem.

As for the rest, voting rights being stripped would present such a headache to pass, that someone would have to really mess up for it to happen. 3/4 majority isn't easy to do, so if someone did something THAT unpopular, they'd likely deserve whatever they get.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:02:05 PM
Personally I don't agree. At least with regards to that. No one particularly deserves to loose voting rights, unless judged so in the courts....
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:05:09 PM
What could possibly make the courts a more valid avenue to decide that than 3/4 of the citizenry?

EDIT: One thing you have to remember is that the citizenry will now be turned into a parliament. Courts getting involved in parliamentary procedure is very dodgy, unless you have constitutional sovereignty.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:06:08 PM
Because the purpose of the court is to be fair and balanced. Because the courts exist to bring balance to the government, further court decisions can be appealed.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:10:12 PM
Your fears are exaggerated, in my opinion, except for the aforementioned possibility of foregin regions abusing our OA. But that's a problem for much more than voting rights.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:14:01 PM
Maybe it's just me, and how I view democracy and the entire point of an Open Assembly then.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Gerrick on March 09, 2016, 10:33:04 PM
You'll need to remember that the court is made of Storting members: the Monarch/his designee (wait, is the Monarch technically a part of the Storting?), the Speaker, and a random citizen. By allowing them to have the ultimate decision in this, these few people would in effect have more power (and the only say in the matter) than literally everyone else combined. If the court were made up of non-Storting members, then it might be different, but that's not currently the case.

If an abstain vote requirement is put in, what if the Speaker and Monarch were to vote either way in the initial vote? Would the court then just be three random people who voted "abstain"? Couldn't this be taken advantage of by people voting to abstain to have a better chance of being picked and thus having the deciding votes?

If it were just a majority needed to give suspensions, then I may agree with you, but 3/4 is an overwhelming amount to be overturned.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:36:21 PM
Personally I think we should keep our current system of selecting Judges....

anywho I still disagree, the only body that should have that authority is the court. Further the court would only be able to suspend one's ability the vote after charges were brought.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:37:23 PM
It's also not as if people here have professional legal training, so the courts wouldn't be inherently better than a 3/4 majority anyway.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:40:15 PM
Honestly it's just my beliefs, OA having that authority is against the entire reason for having it...
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:45:23 PM
Elaborate. Because we're moving to an OA to cut down on useless bureaucracy, as far as I can tell. One of the biggest reasons people are hesitant to take part in elections for UH and discussions on legislation in general is because we have no way of preventing people from losing their cool and souring the atmosphere for everyone involved. That's what this would fix.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 10:48:09 PM
Elaborate. Because we're moving to an OA to cut down on useless bureaucracy, as far as I can tell. One of the biggest reasons people are hesitant to take part in elections for UH and discussions on legislation in general is because we have no way of preventing people from losing their cool and souring the atmosphere for everyone involved. That's what this would fix.
Well that's not true, you can somewhat easily recall someone.

Also for me the purpose of an OA is to allow everyone to vote in matters concerning law.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:55:57 PM
No, you actually can't easily recall someone. You have to have elections, and possibly run-off elections and all that fun stuff, as happened recently.

And again, the 21 last days of a term is a hell of a long time that absolutely nothing can be done when someone isn't co-operating.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 10:57:30 PM
That part we can always change to seven days rather than twenty-one. (Seven is the minimum amount of time for the entire recall process: two days maximum for the petition, two days for the nomination, and three for the election itself.)
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 10:59:43 PM
And then a gazillion run-offs. I also believe Chanku is advocating that we keep our current system more than anything else.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 09, 2016, 11:06:33 PM
I worded it so that we kept the current system but combined the numbering and changed "Underhusen" to "Storting".
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 11:08:29 PM
I've ALWAYS advocated for keeping our current system. :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 11:12:58 PM
The only reason some people have even been running for this current system is to utterly destroy it, so there's that. :P
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 11:15:43 PM
And I disagree with that.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 11:18:43 PM
You disagree with people running for that reason, or you disagree that it's happened?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 09, 2016, 11:27:44 PM
The latter...but heck why not the former too! (Jk)
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Laurentus on March 09, 2016, 11:35:05 PM
Shall I quote Point Breeze, Sapphiron and Reon's latest campaign threads, in which they explicitly say they're only running to destroy the current system?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Chanku on March 10, 2016, 12:24:21 AM
And I didn't vote for them. I also ran on a non-destruction campaign.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Michi on March 10, 2016, 12:50:57 AM
As did I at least in my campaign for the special election.  But I think it's pretty much known that I support dissolving the UH...so you had candidates that may not have even voiced it, but they would have been completely on board with destroying the current system.
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Weissreich on March 10, 2016, 02:52:26 PM
Somewhat confused by talk of Speaker (/Pro Tem), as far as I was aware that office will go out of service and be replaced by the Presiding Officer, and the ability to create new Office(rs) in-sitting?
Title: The Storting Reformation Amendment Act
Post by: Barnes on March 10, 2016, 07:35:28 PM
The Speaker is the sole presiding officer for now, and the only elected position. The Storting has the power to create other offices as they wish.