Wintreath Regional Community
A Link to the Past - Archives => The Registry of Things Past - Historic Archive => Frosthold Castle - Wintreath Government => Topic started by: Laurentus on January 29, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
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Since it's kind of depressing to have no paragons who are still very actively involved with the region, and since Pengu most definitely deserves it for his contributions to the ministry of culture and both chambers of the legislature, I'm proposing this.
How should we word this, and is this something we all agree should happen?
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We have a precedent of only elevating members who have notable contributions to the community to Paragon status after they are no longer actively involved with the region. That said, I do agree that Pengu deserves to be elevated to this prestigious status.
Meanwhile, would any of the current Skrifa like to chime in on this or is there consensus that this should be left to the next Underhusen?
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With Weissreich's return to the community, I'd say a precedent has been established that allows Paragons to actively participate now, so that is no longer a potential obstacle in giving Pengu such a status. :)
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the next session of the UH does with this.
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Upon seeing his return, it's become increasingly evident that Pengu is vital to the community and culture. And frankly, of all things, he didn't deserve that citizenship scare, and he should've been an honorary citizen so he didn't have to worry about losing his status here in Wintreath.
I'll be happy to draft something up soon :)
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Upon seeing his return, it's become increasingly evident that Pengu is vital to the community and culture. And frankly, of all things, he didn't deserve that citizenship scare, and he should've been an honorary citizen so he didn't have to worry about losing his status here in Wintreath.
I'll be happy to draft something up soon :)
As Jean-Luc Picard would say, "Make it so!"
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I might be somewhat late to the proceedings here (that's what I get for clicking into the forum and then back out without reading all of the threads!) but for what it's worth I think Pengu is deserving of the Paragon status. His contributions in making and keeping the region what it is today can't really be judged, because they're not only codified in law or RP threads but more in the discussions and conversations he's contributed to.
The precedent of Paragonhood being a post humorously awarded accolade is, whilst laudable in some regards, rather restrictive. I'm not sure about the status of the Wintrean Commendation vis-a-vis it actually existing any more, but I get the impression that Paragonhood and/or being granted a Title is the only real way we have to reward an active member of the community without also (and again, this may not hold true for long with the Convention on at the moment) moving them into a position of authority or responsibility, a position they might not be able to take.
By making it something active members can receive, you'd be creating an incentive for involvement not only in the legislative (as I was at first, back when I was first around) but in the cultural and community activities. If we build on the already well-constructed foundations of the region we can only go from strength to strength in the future, and hopefully we'll be able to retain - and reward - longstanding members for their commitment and contributions :)
Who better to set that precedent than Pengu?
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Fully agreed, though I would argue Citizen of the Month is also a fairly prestigious award.
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Fully agreed, though I would argue Citizen of the Month is also a fairly prestigious award.
That may be a bit biased coming from a two-time Citizen of the Month and Citizen of the Year >:D
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Ugh. I'm not certain it was an honour for me. I foolishly agreed to interview said citizens, so by now I'm going to have to interview myself 3 times. :'(
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Ugh. I'm not certain it was an honour for me. I foolishly agreed to interview said citizens, so by now I'm going to have to interview myself 3 times. :'(
Actually, I'm going to go ahead and take care of the interviews so I can start tossing them into the Lusty Jarl...unless others want to do it. :P
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Ugh. I'm not certain it was an honour for me. I foolishly agreed to interview said citizens, so by now I'm going to have to interview myself 3 times. :'(
Actually, I'm going to go ahead and take care of the interviews so I can start tossing them into the Lusty Jarl...unless others want to do it. :P
Yeah, I was under the impression that Pengu would be doing the interviews. He even contacted me to set one up.
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The Wintreath Commendation still exists, however I honestly think that the name change of Honorary Citizenship to Paragon was a mistake as people seem to not realize the original reasons behind them... :\
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Oh, I agreed to it months and months ago. Sapphiron, Pengu, Point Breeze and Anneliese (who came, made waves, and vanished) will probably remember me doing theirs. It's yet to be published though.
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I have introduced an act for debate in the UH. It goes something like this.
Title
1. This act shall be cited as the Pengu Paragon Act.
Recognition
2. Wintreath notes the numerous achievements of Pengu:
(a) Establishing the Lusty Jarl and keeping it entertaining and engaging,
(b) Being a driving force for the community with his work on Werewolf,
(c) For outstanding service as the Jarl of Culture
3. Wintreath recognises that:
(a) Pengu's efforts have invaluably furthered the continuity of the region and its revived roleplay,
(b) The above list is not fully inclusive of Pengu's accomplishments, and
4. Pengu is hereby elevated to the rank of Paragon.
I would just like to see where the people stand on this.
Also, since I forgot to ask, if anyone else has any other reason why Pengu should be elevated I would love to hear it :]
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@Pengu?
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Yes sir?
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Typical man. Calls my name out of the blue, and then never answers back when I respond. :))
I'll assume you wanted my input on this, @Laurentus?
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What do you think of my proposal, @Pengu?
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What North said.
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Well, I usually try to refrain from commenting too much on topics about myself. :P
But overall it looks fine. There is, this:
(b) The above list is not fully inclusive of Penhu's accomplishments, and
:P
Also, I wouldn't exactly say that I was any sort of driving force for the RP sector. That was all Laurentus, Sapphiron, and some of our active RP members. I wouldn't feel right taking any credit whatsoever for any of the RP sector's success.
In replacement of that, talking about Werewolf would suffice. It was my first game that I introduced to Wintreath and laid out all of the groundwork for, and as WW6 has shown, has still been a game that is very popular on here.
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Not to mention Werewolf becoming quite an inter-regional hit. House Valeria wouldn't be here if it weren't for Werewolf.
It's also a great way for new people to break the ice in the region, and an instant way to make friends in the region.
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Fair enough. I will amend the Act. Penhu :]
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Thank you for getting my name right. :P
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Also North, the precedent of an active Paragon has already been set by Weissreich's return to the community. :)
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Also North, the precedent of an active Paragon has already been set by Weissreich's return to the community. :)
But if I recall, he was made a Paragon before he became active again.
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True, but he could often be seen lurking around beforehand.
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Sorry that I hadn't replied before...work and all.
I share the concerns expressed by some others. Nothing against Pengu, who is someone I feel deserves every praise and reward possible, but the original purpose of Paragonhood/Honorary Citizenship was to memorialize important members of the community that for whatever reason could no longer be a part of NationStates. There is a precedent for people returning because of the fact that it would be an insult to strip someone of an honour just for being active again. I'm just not sure it's in good taste to memorialize someone who is still active in the community, and I hope Pengu can stay active with us for a long, long time.
We have so many other ways to recognize people that are active...Wintreath's Finest, Commendations, and the Nobility. I'm not sure why we need to begin memorializing our active members.
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Sorry that I hadn't replied before...work and all.
I share the concerns expressed by some others. Nothing against Pengu, who is someone I feel deserves every praise and reward possible, but the original purpose of Paragonhood/Honorary Citizenship was to memorialize important members of the community that for whatever reason could no longer be a part of NationStates. There is a precedent for people returning because of the fact that it would be an insult to strip someone of an honour just for being active again. I'm just not sure it's in good taste to memorialize someone who is still active in the community, and I hope Pengu can stay active with us for a long, long time.
We have so many other ways to recognize people that are active...Wintreath's Finest, Commendations, and the Nobility. I'm not sure why we need to begin memorializing our active members.
My response to that is that, at least in my humble opinion, all that may not be enough.
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I mean, there's already a similar honor, the Commendation, that's pretty similar. It's basically the same thing except without the honorary citizenship.
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Ah, but the honorary citizenship is a practical reward for hard work, which I feel Pengu deserves. Others are free to disagree, but I support this.
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I will be voting against this if it goes to the Overhusen. Again, it's nothing against Pengu, I just feel that Paragonhood should retain its original purpose, and there are plenty of other ways to honour Pengu and other active Citizens.
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What is the exact wording of the law regarding paragon status in its current state?
EDIT: Found it.
3. Recognition of Paragons
3.1 The Storing shall have the authority to recognize any previous or current Citizen as a Paragon of Wintreath if it feels the individual was
an essential of member of the regional community, or performed invaluable service to the region, and/or otherwise embodied the principles, values, culture, or honour of the region.
3.2 Paragons shall be exempt from the requirements of Section 2 of this Act and shall enjoy all the rights and privileges of Citizenship.
Why was it written like that (with the words "current" Citizen) instead of perhaps "previously active?"
This is just for clarification, and removed from the actual debate of whether Pengu deserves it.
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3. Recognition of Paragons
3.1 The Storing shall have the authority to recognize any previous or current Citizen as a Paragon of Wintreath if it feels the individual was an essential of member of the regional community, or performed invaluable service to the region, and/or otherwise embodied the principles, values, culture, or honour of the region.
3.2 Paragons shall be exempt from the requirements of Section 2 of this Act and shall enjoy all the rights and privileges of Citizenship.
3.3 The Storting shall have the authority to revoke recognition of Paragon status.
And I know what it says about current Citizens, but as the original original version did only apply to previous Citizens.
Actually, the original amendment isn't on the law page. Can someone please make sure the law page is up to date this term?
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Well, for better or worse, the law currently implies a currently active person can hold it too.
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Well, for better or worse, the law currently implies a currently active person can hold it too.
It does, which makes it entirely legal to elevate Pengu to Paragon status. Mootles raises valid points in regards to other commendations being perhaps more suitable, but I've rarely if ever seen them used aside from the case which they were created for. Paragon status I think does more to honour Pengu's contributions than any of the others would.
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Just because it can doesn't mean that it should. I'm not entirely sure why I included that in, since I'm the author of the proposal...it could be that Honorary Citizenship wasn't the institution that it is now, since I think at the time only Charax and Insenjar had been made honorary Citizens. At the end of the day, I now think that Paragonhood should be reserved for memorializing those that are no longer with us, just as Commendations are a good route for those that are still with us, but that's just my opinion.
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Just because it can doesn't mean that it should. I'm not entirely sure why I included that in, since I'm the author of the proposal...it could be that Honorary Citizenship wasn't the institution that it is now, since I think at the time only Charax and Insenjar had been made honorary Citizens. At the end of the day, I now think that Paragonhood should be reserved for memorializing those that are no longer with us, just as Commendations are a good route for those that are still with us, but that's just my opinion.
So we have the Honourary Citizenship commendation (which is kind of moot in this situation as he has citizenship already), the Wintreath Commendation (which would work in this situation quite well, although it's rarely been used) and Paragon status.
I guess it's up to the UH, but I see where you're coming from with your arguments re: Paragonhood. I guess I am a little bias as I am one myself and currently active, but there you are. I'll support Pengu being awarded the Wintreath Commendation (which, IIRC, I was also awarded - who else holds that honour? Chanku? Or was it one of the other old timers?).
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Eh, at the end of the day, what constitutes enough reason to elevate someone to Paragon is entirely subjective, and so Wintermoot is perfectly within his rights to vote nay, while the reverse is also true.
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In addition to yourself, Charax, Insenjar, and Amalya have been made Paragons.
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In addition to yourself, Charax, Insenjar, and Amalya have been made Paragons.
And what of the Wintreath Commendation?
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It appears that just you and Charax received commendations, and Charax received his in the same Act that gave him Paragon status.
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Interestingly, in Dragon Age: Origins, the game which you based it off of, the dwarves named someone a paragon to begin venerating them as living ancestors, which implies a use similar to what we would wish done with Pengu.
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I suppose if it's decided to not give Pengu the elevation to Paragon, then we'd give him the Wintreath Commendation, then alter the wording of the law so that only those who CTE/become inactive can become Paragons, preventing something like this from happening again.
I think the reasoning for wanting to give Pengu the Paragon status is that the Commendation doesn't seem deserving of the work that Pengu has done for the region. Perhaps the Commendation should be brought back and made a sort of active members' version of the Paragon status award? If not, I'd still support Pengu being made a Paragon.
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I think the word Paragon was used incorrectly for the job it was created for.
But yeah, anything that can allow us to give Pengu the practical benefit (namely that he is exempt from the requirements that govern normal citizens) would get my support. I don't like ceremony much, which is why I didn't go for the Commendation to begin with. It feels cheap to me, and I'd rather see people like Weissreich and Pengu receive a practical reward for their services, not just a shiny title.
Anyway, that's just the way I think about things. I'm aware other people are fine with the ceremony alone.
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Allow me to elaborate on my opinions. Wintreath's Finest allows one person to win a month. While theoretically the same person could be voted twice I've only seen that once and honestly believe some people in Wintreath deserve more.
I did not even know the Wintreath Commendations thing existed and only 2 people have ever gotten it. So... yeah.
So I personally think that the Paragon award should be expanded past its original meaning to honour outstanding citizens, and perhaps more importantly, give them permanent citizenship. One of the reasons that Laurentus original argument for this move was the citizenship scare Pengu had. So if it's legal I see no reason for me not to proceed. I respect your position on this matter, Wintermoot, and the position of everyone else. Thank you for the honest discussion.
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@North taking charge and kicking ass. :P
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It was one of the things I promised to do in the UH.
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Take charge and kick ass? :P