Wintreath Regional Community
A Link to the Past - Archives => The Registry of Things Past - Historic Archive => Wintreath Constitutional Convention Archive => Topic started by: Wintermoot on November 23, 2013, 03:09:15 PM
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I feel that we're quickly moving to the end of this Convention, and the time has come for a discussion on a Declaration of Rights. Namely, some Constitutions give a list of rights each Citizen has that cannot be infringed by the government. The question here is, would we like an explicit Declaration of Rights in our Constitution, and if so, what should they be?
The floor is open on this one. :)
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1. Every citizen shall have the right to free speech, to protest, to petition and to free press.
2. Every citizen shall have the right to the free practice of religion and no government institution or official shall establish a regional religion.
3. No citizen shall be subject to an ex post facto law or a bill of attainder.
4. Every citizen shall have the right to manage his or her nation as desired. This provision shall not be construed to prohibit the regional government from establishing a limit on WA endorsements to protect the WA Delegacy.
5. No citizen shall be compelled to be a member of the WA or any other interregional organization.
6. No citizen shall be ejected and banned from the region or banned from the forum without a fair, speedy and public trial before the judiciary. (Whatever it may be called)
7. No citizen shall be subject to double jeopardy.
8. Every citizen shall have the right to stand in regional elections and vote in regional elections and referendums according to any election procedural rules laid out by statute, except during forum bans lawfully imposed by the Judiciary.
9. No citizen shall be deprived of due process of law or equal protection under the law.
10. The granting of rights by this Constitution shall not be construed to restrict or prohibit the granting of additional rights by statute. No rights granted to citizens by this Constitution shall be construed to be granted to non-citizen residents of the region.
tl;dr: Spiritus :P
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lmao! I can't believe someone actually copied and pasted Spiritus' DoR.
We should probably try to modify that. Don't want Cormac suing me for copyright. :P
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I have a few:
1) No Government funded offices may respect or further a religion
2) The government can not make anything compulsory
These are the only things I can think of.
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1 - That held within the bounds of this Declaration are unalterable and inviolate, to be held utmost in the minds of government in all dealings.
2 - Citizens have the right to freedom of speech, of expression and of religion.
3 - Citizens have the right to trial by Habeus Corpus, and any trial deemed to fail this prerequisite are denied the authority to expel a Citizen.
4 - Citizens have the right to protest and petition their government and their Monarch.
5 - No Citizen will be instructed in the management of his or her own nation by the government of the region against their desires.
6 - No Citizen will be instructed to join the World Assembly, positions of government or other inter or extra-regional bodies against their desires.
7 - No Citizen can be denied the right to stand for regional and extra-regional posts by government or Monarchy unless ruled on by the Judiciary.
8 - Government and Monarch cannot enforce, encourage or otherwise further an official religion.
9 - Government and Monarch cannot make compulsory anything without due consultation of ALL citizens.
10 - Government and Monarch have the duty to protect the Citizen and ensure their survival both physically as a nation and economically as members of this region.
11 - Government and Monarch have the duty to prevent all forms of discrimination, regardless of basis, against any Citizen.
12 - Amendments to this Bill of Rights must follow the letter of the Amendment Document (http://wintreath.idantir.com/forums/index.php?topic=182.0) in process and in action.
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I also have a few more ideas:
1) The government of Wintreath may not further nor respect a religion.
2) The Government of Wintreath may not discriminate on basis of race/ethnicity, age, sexuality, gender, or religion
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I also have a few more ideas:
1) The government of Wintreath may not further nor respect a religion.
2) The Government of Wintreath may not discriminate on basis of race/ethnicity, age, sexuality, gender, or religion
I've added that into my proposal, give it a quick peruse and see if there's anything else missing you might like to add? I'm going to incorporate all suggestions and try and come up with a unified document to suggest to Moot :)
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nor respect a religion.
This reads as if the government must be against all religions, perhaps it should read "nor respect a religion above any other religion" 10 - Government and Monarch have the duty to protect the Citizen and ensure their survival both physically as a nation and economically as members of this region.
Yes it sounds good, but what does it mean practically speaking?
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Ah, alright I didn't read it as that way, so that could be written like that.
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nor respect a religion.
This reads as if the government must be against all religions, perhaps it should read "nor respect a religion above any other religion" 10 - Government and Monarch have the duty to protect the Citizen and ensure their survival both physically as a nation and economically as members of this region.
Yes it sounds good, but what does it mean practically speaking?
Keep people safe and allow them to prosper. If you want to discuss vague wording, I'll go find a copy of the American Constitution.
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nor respect a religion.
This reads as if the government must be against all religions, perhaps it should read "nor respect a religion above any other religion" 10 - Government and Monarch have the duty to protect the Citizen and ensure their survival both physically as a nation and economically as members of this region.
Yes it sounds good, but what does it mean practically speaking?
Keep people safe and allow them to prosper. If you want to discuss vague wording, I'll go find a copy of the American Constitution.
So...you want Wintreath to be like America then? :P
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Yes, because of course anyone saying anything remotely along those lines wants to be like America, such an upstanding and great example to everyone the world over. Disagree with me? Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of I'm reading all your emails and the inbound drone.
E: I'm aware sarcasm doesn't come over that well on the internet so thought perhaps clarification should be added. No. Not at all. Not even slightly. Why would you even say that? Are you Houdini? Goddamnit.
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Well, this has gone well...let me try my hand at it. :P
1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasoning behind any decision to revoke their Citizenship, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.
3) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trail.
4) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.
5) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.
6) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.
7) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.
I narrowed the list of rights, as some of them were unnecessary, in my opinion. The right to speak freely includes the right to speak freely about religion, and even if the government were to for some reason adopt an official religion that wouldn't impact that right. As Toms pointed out, some articles were ambiguous and would probably become the subject of lawsuits if they remained, such as the right to physical and economic protection, and I believe that will probably be safely covered by the rest of the document anyway.
I also reworded the part on joining inter or extra-regional bodies...the reason for that is because there were some questions in Spiritus in the past as to whether the Constitution allowed it to join organizations such as the FRA, since it could be interpreted that doing so would make the nations within it members, perhaps against their will. I reworded it so that our region could join any such organization in the future, but our Citizens could not be compelled to participate in it.
Thoughts?
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I like the updated list of rights. The right to free speech, logically including religion, appeals to me, but while I don't ever expect it to happen, in a physical government there'd be the loophole that there is no right to freedom of religious practice and/or belief. Not something I think needs to change, necessarily, but it's something I figured I'd bring up.
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1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasoning behind any decision to revoke their Citizenship, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.
3) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trail.
4) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.
5) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.
6) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.
7) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.
8) Citizens shall have the right to administer their nations however they please
Might be nice to stick that in to make sure we're secure on the gameside, and ensure we're open to all. The two of us can't be the entire line of succession forever y'know.
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Isn't that the same as number 4? :P
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1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasoning behind any decision to revoke their Citizenship, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.
3) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trail.
4) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.
5) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.
6) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.
7) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.
8) The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization
Changes: Removed Elected as that could keep someone from the WHR because of possible abuse, while I don't think this would happen, I want to make sure that this is kept safe for the future of Wintreath
8 was added to prevent any possible alienation, and to keep a law from being passed saying you must be part of something to run for the Underhusen, or join the WHR. These may be unnecessary, but I'd rather have slightly redundant rights that can be used, and be there, then them not being there at all.
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1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
2) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trial for any infractions of Wintreath legislation, be informed of the reasoning behind any decision, and shall have the right to appeal that decision, unless otherwise stated by the Monarch in which case a justification will be provided.
3) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.
4) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.
5) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.
6) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.
7) The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization
Changes: I combined 2 and 3 as I feel revocation of citizenship also falls under a decision made by a fair trial. The last part of the changed 2 may be redundant with Wintermoot's current legislation, but I feel clarification between documents is always helpful.
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@Chanku - There may very well be times where we want to keep someone out of the WHR, especially if a raider applies or someone that we have intelligence on that we can't share with the community in general. This is standard procedure for any region with a military. Also, the only way that a law could be passed adding requirements to the Underhusen would be for a Constitutional amendment to be passed allowing it. The section you're proposing could just as easily be amended to allow it as just adding in the requirement.
@Ducky911 - I have to respectfully disagree. There may be cases where we have to shoot first and ask questions later and revoke Citizenship, or when discretion is needed to revoke Citizenship from someone. They can still appeal the decision and receive their fair trial, but without the dangers posed of being forced to keep them on Citizen masking. This is standard practice for some regions, such as Lazarus. Also, as read your changes could be taken to mean I have the right to revoke someone's right to appeal a decision as long as they are informed why, and that's not a power I necessarily want.
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Then would it be better to leave citizenship out of it altogether and leave it up to your legislation currently in place in the GToL? For example:
1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
2) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trial for any infractions of Wintreath legislation, be informed of the reasoning behind any decision, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.
a. For issues of citizenship see Decree 001: Concerning Regional Citizenship in the Great Tome of Law
3) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.
4) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.
5) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.
6) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.
7) The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization
Because I don't necessarily think that citizenship needs to be directly addressed if you have already implemented legislation regarding the institution. But if the judiciary in whatever form has the right to revoke citizenship, it should be addressed and I feel that this is something that needs to be hammered out before the Declaration is finished. Because if shoot first ask questions later is a policy of the judiciary, I feel that it needs much stronger wording to be addressed in the Declaration. I also will defend the process of appealing a decision made through a trial that does not involve citizenship, which is why I have worded it so.
Or perhaps, it could be worded thus:
2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasons behind any decisions regarding infractions of Wintreath legislation, the right to a fair trial, and the right to appeal that decision.
This still covers citizenship and is a reworking that places a decision before a trial in wording but doesn't necessarily make it that way in all cases as no terms regarding time frame are used (as is also shown in the first iteration). It also doesn't implicate you once the judiciary is set up. But if you reserve your right to revoke citizenship without consent or consultation of the judiciary, I think it needs to have clause a in the previous rendition. I just think this can all be covered in one Right through interpretation and careful wording as I have never been a fan of redundancy.
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Isn't that the same as number 4? :P
If I run now nobody will ever know I missed that. :-[
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