Wintreath Regional Community
The Frozen Village of Fourneshore - Chats and Discussions => Howling Wind Tavern - General Discussion => Topic started by: Gerrick on February 27, 2018, 04:42:41 PM
-
This is a discussion on the "Q" (usually standing for "Queer") in "LGBTQ" used here in Wintreath.
The Pride (http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?board=153.0)'s current designation is as an "LGBTQ chat", and the Thane of its community is currently called the "Thane of LGBTQ Affairs". What do people think about the "Q" being included in these official titles and names in Wintreath? Should we remove it to make it just "LGBT", or should we keep it as is?
I'm a cis hetero man, so I'm not that much in the know with these issues. I do understand, though, that the word "queer" has been used as a derogatory term for those not strictly heterosexual and cisgendered as the term is derived from its original meaning of "odd" or "strange". However, the "Q" has since been added in recent years to "LGBT" as a sort of umbrella term for anyone not included in "LGBT". I have read that there is still controversy over the inclusion of the "Q" because some see the blanket term "Queer" as diminishing the meaning of the other words in the initialism "LGBT", and at the same time it can be viewed as self-deprecating.
What better place to discuss this issue than here? I'd particularly like to hear from those who identify as LGBT(Q). And if there's enough support for it, we'll remove the "Q" from official titles here in Wintreath altogether.
-
I, for one, never understood the need to include Q in LGBT. What is not included in LGBT that we need to put Q there?
-
Honestly, I never completely understood many of the add-on letters after the T...aside from maybe the original A for Allies (since I'm all for allies getting some recognition on their own).
Q just seems silly to add because of it's dictionary definition of being "Strange" or "Unusual," which to me personally comes off to me as more offensive than being called a word that essentially just means "bundle of sticks." The only reason the latter has become more offensive overall is because people that are more anti-LGBT say it much more casually and with more venom in their voice than they say Queer.
But would I be opposed to areas such as Pansexuality, Asexual, or Gender Fluid (or two spirit) being added? Not at all, since one is a much more encompassing form of bisexuality since it goes beyond gender types (since they're in love with the soul that lives inside), one means no sexual attraction whatsoever, and likewise the third defines people that don't follow a specific gender type and encompass both traits and/or styles from both camps. All of which I believe have equal validity to be added to the main list.
But ones such as Queer, Polyamory, and Kink I don't believe have a place on the list...at least in its main form . The first really has no place on there at all for the reason mentioned earlier...and likewise the other two are more why the + was supposed to exist for.
-
Let's just ditch LGBTQ entirely and go with QUILTBAG instead. :D
(Note: suggestion is not meant to be taken very seriously)
-
I'm Lesbian, transgender and a woman, and seen since my three communities seem to be the hardest hit by "Queer politics" let me talk from personal experience about it:
1. There was at one point, a strong belief by many queer activists that Bisexuality is an inherently regressive label, promoted Pansexuality as a progressive, woke alternative and shamed Bisexuals for being transphobic and anti-nonbinary. Funnily enough, Pansexuals from my experience tend to be disgustingly transphobic, defining their sexuality as being attracted to men, women and trans people.
2. It's now a near universal experience among Lesbians around my age (17-19) to have a "queer phase" where they misunderstood compulsory heterosexuality and strong internalized Lesbophobia to be one of the many MOGAI labels in the sea of queer identity. The worst example I can think of is a Lesbian telling me she used to identify as "Homosexual and heteromantic". In other words, being solely attracted to women sexually but solely attracted to men romantically. She identified as this because as she lives in the Middle East, she was deathly terrified of persecution for being in a gay relationship, and just assumed that was totally normal.
3. A close friend of mine is a butch trans lesbian. In other words, she's a trans woman who's solely attracted to women and who tries hard to be gender nonconforming, and is pretty passionate about defying what it means to be a woman and in particular, what it means to be a trans woman. She's been approached multiple times by "queer" activists telling her she can't identify as a woman, as she isn't feminine, recommending she identifies as some nonbinary label instead.
4. This is part of a much broader belief present within Queer circles of gender being a set of stereotypes and aesthetics rather than a violent and oppressive stratification of humanity. If you're a trans woman, you must be into feminine stuff, makeup, dresses, that kinda thing. If you're a trans man, you should be masculine, and so on. Likewise, cis butch lesbians are in fact trans men. Any sort of gender nonconformity means you're not actually who you say you are. I've seen the term "transfemmes" seriously used as a catch-all for all trans women and trans DMABs (designated-male-at-birth people who transition but don't identify as female), because they sincerely associate womanhood with femininity.
5. As you could kinda gather, Queer activists seem to really hate butch lesbians for some reason. All of the people I know who are militantly anti-queer are butches or otherwise gender nonconforming lesbians, because they take so much shit from them. I've seen Queers earnestly argue that butches have toxic masculinity, are misogynistic, predatory, etc. Basically revitalizing Lesbophobic stereotypes of Butches being violent sexual predators and making butch lesbians feel uncomfortable and hated within LGBT circles, which is supposed to be the one place where they should feel accepted.
6. Finally, Queer activists are notorious in the LGBT community for conflating having stupid sexual kinks and fetishes with being LGBT or queer. The most infamous example I can think of is the comic Oh Joy Sex Toy (Please don't google it in a public area) where the "Queer" writer celebrates everything from fetishizing trans women to fetishizing racism under the notion that it's positive and healthy. And she is faaaaar from the only one. It's literally a meme now in LGBT circles that straight people like to label all the weird sex they have as "queer". "Queer" being used to describe odd (and reprehensible) fetishes has reached such a point that as one LGBT person I know pointed out, nobody knows if a self described "Queer event" is for LGBT people or for fetishists.
The issue with Queer politics goes far and beyond the fact that many LGBT people are uncomfortable with being associated with it. It's a disgusting political movement that endorses misogynistic, transphobic, bipophobic and lesbophobic beliefs under the thin veil of LGBT positivity and liberal progressiveness. We don't need our LGBT community to associate with it. We should strive to be as inclusive and as diverse as possible, which is precisely why we should not associate with queer politics.
-
Honestly, I never completely understood many of the add-on letters after the T...aside from maybe the original A for Allies (since I'm all for allies getting some recognition on their own).
Q just seems silly to add because of it's dictionary definition of being "Strange" or "Unusual," which to me personally comes off to me as more offensive than being called a word that essentially just means "bundle of sticks." The only reason the latter has become more offensive overall is because people that are more anti-LGBT say it much more casually and with more venom in their voice than they say Queer.
But would I be opposed to areas such as Pansexuality, Asexual, or Gender Fluid (or two spirit) being added? Not at all, since one is a much more encompassing form of bisexuality since it goes beyond gender types (since they're in love with the soul that lives inside), one means no sexual attraction whatsoever, and likewise the third defines people that don't follow a specific gender type and encompass both traits and/or styles from both camps. All of which I believe have equal validity to be added to the main list.
But ones such as Queer, Polyamory, and Kink I don't believe have a place on the list...at least in its main form . The first really has no place on there at all for the reason mentioned earlier...and likewise the other two are more why the + was supposed to exist for.
fyi, gender fluidity is already in the LGBT acronym. "transgender" has always included nonbinary and genderfluid folk. It's even present in our flag, the white in the center represents NB people.
-
Honestly, I never completely understood many of the add-on letters after the T...aside from maybe the original A for Allies (since I'm all for allies getting some recognition on their own).
Q just seems silly to add because of it's dictionary definition of being "Strange" or "Unusual," which to me personally comes off to me as more offensive than being called a word that essentially just means "bundle of sticks." The only reason the latter has become more offensive overall is because people that are more anti-LGBT say it much more casually and with more venom in their voice than they say Queer.
But would I be opposed to areas such as Pansexuality, Asexual, or Gender Fluid (or two spirit) being added? Not at all, since one is a much more encompassing form of bisexuality since it goes beyond gender types (since they're in love with the soul that lives inside), one means no sexual attraction whatsoever, and likewise the third defines people that don't follow a specific gender type and encompass both traits and/or styles from both camps. All of which I believe have equal validity to be added to the main list.
But ones such as Queer, Polyamory, and Kink I don't believe have a place on the list...at least in its main form . The first really has no place on there at all for the reason mentioned earlier...and likewise the other two are more why the + was supposed to exist for.
fyi, gender fluidity is already in the LGBT acronym. "transgender" has always included nonbinary and genderfluid folk. It's even present in our flag, the white in the center represents NB people.
I actually didn't know that the Transgender community actually included that specific area. That's pretty awesome. But I guess it does make sense since being gender fluid would fall under the similar area as being transgender.
Let's just ditch LGBTQ entirely and go with QUILTBAG instead. :D
(Note: suggestion is not meant to be taken very seriously)
Honestly, I'd be all for that when the time comes (ditching the whole LGBT label I mean). Ditch it and let's all just embrace the fact that we're all human beings, and we should all love and respect one another regardless of who we want to share our lives with.
Alas, we don't live in such a perfect world, so labels such as this are necessary at this point in time so that people like myself, or Mariam, or anyone else that identifies themselves as one of those letters aren't tossed aside or treated like we're less than human. Though we're not entirely in that age anymore and people are becoming more open minded...we're still not completely there just yet. So until then, we need as much empowerment, representation, and acceptance that we can get. And thankfully, this simple label has been helping do just that with each passing day.
And for me personally, that's the real gay agenda. Equal representation and acceptance like the "normal" heterosexual community instead of the constant brushing under the rug and "You have equal rights: you're allowed to get married to a woman just like I am. What you want are EXTRA rights." BS that still gets spewed out by people who just don't understand since they're in their own perfect world.
Thankfully though, as I said, I'm encountering less people that are like that, and more people that are acting like normal, decent human beings.
-
For what it's worth I've never had a problem with the term queer or the addition of such to the acronym. Originally it stood for "questioning" redering to those who were unsure, mostly used in school settings. But I've always kind of thought of queer as just a catch all phrase for those included in the LGBT and those who are not. I'm gay but always thought of myswlf as gender nonconforming or gender queer giving my propensity for makeup and other non masculine interests. I don't think it does any harm and I've always found that there is a sense of power in reclaiming negative terms.
-
I've been involved in LGBTQ communities in the past, and I've known many people in the community over the years, but I have to admit this is the first time as much as seeing the phrase "queer activist", much less hearing about anyone using the label with those kinds of reprehensible sentiments. From what I gather though, the use of the word is very charged.
On one hand, the word apparently has some historic meaning to the LGBT community, especially in the name of groups that fought against discrimination, and it's also a discriminatory word that's being reclaimed by younger generations of the LGBT community. According to the Human Rights Campaign, some people also identify as Queer because it's non-specific and can incorporate multiple labels in one word.
I don't know, I just don't feel knowledgeable enough to weigh in on this one with any credibility.
-
For me, personally (as a bisexual male living in a country with...lets say less than accepting people and even less accommodating laws), the LGBT movement was always supposed to be a organization with the goal of pushing legislation for equal rights under the law. Here, where I live, that is the fight that Pink Dot and others fight for, one I support. Adding Q to LGBT is, at best, a fight over semantics. I personally do not see the need but do not oppose adding it on principle.
-
I guess my official stance is that the Q isn't necessary. I just use the term queer as an umbrella term for all of the letters of the acronym like I said. I think of it as the queer community.
-
For what it's worth I've never had a problem with the term queer or the addition of such to the acronym. Originally it stood for "questioning" redering to those who were unsure, mostly used in school settings. But I've always kind of thought of queer as just a catch all phrase for those included in the LGBT and those who are not. I'm gay but always thought of myswlf as gender nonconforming or gender queer giving my propensity for makeup and other non masculine interests. I don't think it does any harm and I've always found that there is a sense of power in reclaiming negative terms.
I'd strongly encourage you to read what I wrote of my own personal experience as to how queer activists operate. "Queer" goes far and beyond being merely a catch-all term, it's a social theory framework, based off of a bastardized version of queer theory.
-
For what it's worth I've never had a problem with the term queer or the addition of such to the acronym. Originally it stood for "questioning" redering to those who were unsure, mostly used in school settings. But I've always kind of thought of queer as just a catch all phrase for those included in the LGBT and those who are not. I'm gay but always thought of myswlf as gender nonconforming or gender queer giving my propensity for makeup and other non masculine interests. I don't think it does any harm and I've always found that there is a sense of power in reclaiming negative terms.
I'd strongly encourage you to read what I wrote of my own personal experience as to how queer activists operate. "Queer" goes far and beyond being merely a catch-all term, it's a social theory framework, based off of a bastardized version of queer theory.
You and I must know different kinds of queer activists then. The ones ive know and associated have been based on the idea that each person is free to live and identify however they please. That was the bedrock of their philosophy. Which is why I'm trying to avoid basing things off of personal experience. With every theory and believe system there will be those who bastardize it. To me Queer is just a term. It means something different to each of us.
-
@Gattoartico As the new Thane of this community, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the discussion.
-
I find the solidified concept of the acronym itself to be a bit odd.. as you add letters, you add fewer and fewer people to the group, and the collective interests of people in the group get broader and broader. At a certain point, adding a letter weakens the group collectively. It's likely that that first happened at "T" because of the rarity of transgender individuals.. In any case, I don't mind them adding "Q". I don't think that "T" and "Q" are the same thing, so it's useful as an addition.
That being said, even though I'm transgender, I don't really consider myself part of the LGBTQ community or really any community, and am not sure to what extent they represent my interests. I'm probably never going to a pride parade or anything, because I don't feel like being transgender is something admirable and I don't feel like waving it about, though I do see the value in the collective bargaining power of groups of disparate minorities. Everyone I know IRL are cishets, except for the notable exception of my girlfriend.
-
Mostly I’ve sat back and been reading this discussion as it expands. I find myself agreeing with Mariam here. Most of my experiences with those who utilise the term queer, it is either used as an insult or used by those who feel if you are anything but a “genderqueer” woman that’s a lesbian you don’t deserve to exist. Granted that represents only the most extreme of the group, while on the other hand I’ve never met the virtuous few.
Overall though I’ve never seen a need for the term being there. It only detracts from the original purpose of the acronym and puts others in a worse off position. I have never felt comfortable expressing my sexuality or identity around people who identify with the term queer. As those I normally interact with assume that if I’m not attracted to them and just gay then I’m transphobic, a misogynist, or most painful of all they tell me I need to be in the closet. I have never been and will never be in the closet. I refuse to be stepped on like that because someone felt hurt because I wasn’t conforming to their views. In some ways I fear queer activists more than hateful religious groups. Because queer activists are normally allowed in safe spaces I find myself avoiding those spaces. For example I rarely enter my school’s GSA, out of fear of the ones there who judge you for not being what they want you to be.
Perhaps my words are a little heated but it is my input.
[this has to be my longest post that isn’t a short story]
-
Thanks for the input, everyone. It seems like most would prefer to remove the Q. Is there anyone else who would like to speak on the matter, particularly in defense of the Q? If not, then I think we'll get to removing the Q.
-
One version I've always liked is LGBT+, where the + is intended to be inclusive of anyone who finds themselves socially outcast or disadvantaged by their sexuality.
-
One version I've always liked is LGBT+, where the + is intended to be inclusive of anyone who finds themselves socially outcast or disadvantaged by their sexuality.
That's a really good idea...I like that too, and it's a little surprising nobody brought that up as an option before.
-
The "+" leaves a lot more open than adding a string of letters to the end that some people may disagree with. Plus (no pun intended) I never really liked the term "queer".
-
On a side note: @Wintermoot did you add your own custom "cat memes" counter to your userbar? Or is that just plain text in the user title?
-
On a side note: @Wintermoot did you add your own custom "cat memes" counter to your userbar? Or is that just plain text in the user title?
I thought it was the personal text in the profile editor.
-
On a side note: @Wintermoot did you add your own custom "cat memes" counter to your userbar? Or is that just plain text in the user title?
North is correct, it's the personal text field of my profile, lol.