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Shoutout to @taulover for being the last person in Potatostates.  I CTE'd, refounded and forgot the password to Potatostates XD

Shoutout to @taulover for being the last person in Potatostates.  I CTE'd, refounded and forgot the password to Potatostates XD

I have returned! 

Haha, screw feminism.

Yeah, men don't get to have opinions on feminism, honey.

Yeah, men don't get to have opinions on feminism, honey.

That sort of thinking is probably why there are TERFs.

Yeah, men don't get to have opinions on feminism, honey.

That sort of thinking is probably why there are TERFs.

TERF is derived from Radical Feminist criticisms of transgender women from the 1970s which saw us as males invading womens spaces and with a faux conception of womanhood. Radical Feminists of those days even if they were okay with men being allowed into feminist spaces would've still had a beef with us. Their issue wasn't just being allowed into feminist spaces, but having any sort of claim to womanhood. TERFs as we know them today come from women radicalized by the slew of transmisogynistic propaganda on the internet portraying us as hyper-misogynistic, hyper-lesbophobic sexual predators who only want to transition out of some depraved fetish, using the transmisogyny of 1970s Radical Feminist figures who were never fully educated when it came to trans issues as legitimization. Does hatred of men play a factor into it? To be honest as a trans woman who's dealt with these people for years now, no. Not at all. TERFs like men more than us. TERFs don't look at us as men. They see us as an even more deranged, even more evil, defective perversion of men. They're united in an obsessive hatred of trans women as the greatest threat to Feminism and Womanhood. There are even male TERFs.

TERFs are entirely motivated by their transmisogyny. They only use their hatred of men as a pretense. So don't pull that with me. TERFs are the exception to the current trend of Feminists (actual Feminists, not white bourgeois twits who only call themselves Feminists for social clout) being militantly pro-trans women in womens spaces and pro-trans liberation, while also being strongly against men in feminist spaces. I was reading the other day about a demonstration up in Canada over a corporation developing on Indigenous land.  An Indigenous activist made this observation that's stuck with me and is very relevant to this conversation:

The white/non-Indigenous Canadian protesters were protesting for a cause. Some even just for fun. Just another adventure, another fight to be won. The Indigenous protesters? That was their home. Their community. Their life. The Indigenous protesters were fighting for their survival. And that's why the Indigenous liberation movement must be lead by Indigenous peoples, that's why the black liberation movement in America must be lead by black people, and that's why the Feminist movement must be lead by women. Apart from the fact that any woman who's spent significant time in Feminist spaces will tell you that the men who invite themselves into them tend to be absolute trash, this simply isn't your movement. It isn't your concern. Our oppression doesn't affect you, so you'll never care about womens rights like I care about womens rights. Feminism is just another online discussion topic for you. It's survival for me.

That's why I have a problem with a guy telling me to "screw feminism". He doesn't have a fucking stake in womens rights. He doesn't have a stake in reproductive rights, in bathroom laws, in sexual assault, in sex work/pornography, in Lesbophobia, in transmisogyny. What business does he got telling me to "screw" feminism?

Anybody can have an opinion. It might not be an educated one, it might not be a respectful one, (and if it's either of those let's be real it'll probably be kind of a shitty one, to say nothing of the case where it's both), but denying people the opportunity to have an opinion at all is exactly how you get people going 'screw feminism'.
So, sure, maybe I shouldn't have specified 'TERFs' (although I thought it would be a nice, pithy statement). But let's not pretend that the immense, Trump-shaped backlash in our current society has nothing to do with 'deplorables' being told that their opinion doesn't matter and in fact they shouldn't even have one, because it's not relevant to the issues being discussed.
Now, if you're asserting that they shouldn't expect their opinion to be represented on the policy level, that's another thing entirely. But the fact is: it's a democracy. Everyone gets to have an opinion, stupid, uninformed, disrespectful, shitty, or (hopefully) otherwise, because the moment that stops happening, it's not a democracy anymore.
(yeah fine it is and almost always has been an oligarchy but at least we all pretend for the cameras)

Anybody can have an opinion. It might not be an educated one, it might not be a respectful one, (and if it's either of those let's be real it'll probably be kind of a shitty one, to say nothing of the case where it's both), but denying people the opportunity to have an opinion at all is exactly how you get people going 'screw feminism'.
So, sure, maybe I shouldn't have specified 'TERFs' (although I thought it would be a nice, pithy statement). But let's not pretend that the immense, Trump-shaped backlash in our current society has nothing to do with 'deplorables' being told that their opinion doesn't matter and in fact they shouldn't even have one, because it's not relevant to the issues being discussed.
Now, if you're asserting that they shouldn't expect their opinion to be represented on the policy level, that's another thing entirely. But the fact is: it's a democracy. Everyone gets to have an opinion, stupid, uninformed, disrespectful, shitty, or (hopefully) otherwise, because the moment that stops happening, it's not a democracy anymore.
(yeah fine it is and almost always has been an oligarchy but at least we all pretend for the cameras)

Though I do get the feeling that you're gonna use my mocking comment to a guy feeling the need to let everyone know he hates feminism to claim that I don't think men shouldn't so much as think about feminism in a way to keep a pointless argument going, I don't think men can't have opinions on Feminism. But I don't think those opinions matter. Ultimately, 90% of men don't care and will not care, regardless of their alleged support of Feminism and most of the remaining 10% are in passionate opposition to womens rights. Not that there aren't good men, I've met more than a few. But for the most part, it's women and women only who can be a force for liberation. And also we're speaking in an online forum, not Congress, cut the "democracy" bullshit.

Also trump got elected because to be frank here, Americans as a whole are a viciously racist and viciously uneducated people who'll drop to their knees at the most uncharismatic and pathetic demagogue imaginable. Doesn't matter because it's not like I'm aiming to get on the Democratic ticket for the 2040 Presidential election. This country can decay into ash for all I care.

Though I do get the feeling that you're gonna use my mocking comment to a guy feeling the need to let everyone know he hates feminism to claim that I don't think men shouldn't so much as think about feminism in a way to keep a pointless argument going, I don't think men can't have opinions on Feminism. But I don't think those opinions matter. Ultimately, 90% of men don't care and will not care, regardless of their alleged support of Feminism and most of the remaining 10% are in passionate opposition to womens rights. Not that there aren't good men, I've met more than a few. But for the most part, it's women and women only who can be a force for liberation.

And how was Doc supposed to be able to tell that you were simply being mocking with that comment, and not serious? Because the nuanced view you described here is completely different from your earlier statement that men simply don't get an opinion at all.

From what I read of Doc's posts, he still appears to be under the impression that your "mocking" comment, as you put it, was your actual opinion, when you seem to be suggesting otherwise here.

Haha, screw feminism.

Yeah, men don't get to have opinions on feminism, honey.

You can try to stop me if you want, but you'd be wasting your time. Feminism is an ideology. It can be criticized, and it needs to be like any other ideology.

Apart from the fact that any woman who's spent significant time in Feminist spaces will tell you that the men who invite themselves into them tend to be absolute trash, this simply isn't your movement. It isn't your concern.

It is my concern when whatever feminists cook up starts affecting me and mine.

Men more likely to go to jail and get much longer sentences than women? The gender disparity six times greater than the white-black disparity? Who cares, let's stop putting women in prison then! For anything! Yay equality!

Research finds out that domestic violence rates are about equal? Who gives a fuck, let's perpetuate this model that paints women as always being victims and men as always being violent perpetrators, leading to innocent battered men being arrested and hauled away to jail and victimized by a justice system that has a recognizable bias towards (white) women. Yay equality!

That's why I have a problem with a guy telling me to "screw feminism". He doesn't have a fucking stake in womens rights. He doesn't have a stake in reproductive rights, in bathroom laws, in sexual assault, in sex work/pornography, in Lesbophobia, in transmisogyny. What business does he got telling me to "screw" feminism?

I have a stake in men being the majority of suicides, the vast majority of homeless people, the crushing majority of workplace deaths, who can be mutilated at birth without their consent, widely thought of as either disposable working drones or rampaging rape machines without self-control instead of human beings worthy of compassion, and it goes on and on and on. And it tends to make me a bit sour when the only people willing to talk about these issues, as bombastic, clumsy or sometimes downright stupid as some may be (since every "movement" has its loons), are painted over with the very large brush of demonification, denied a voice (except if filtered by the right ideology), denied the right to complain and try to change things, because entrenched proponents of a particular ideology want to keep the sweet funding pie all to themselves.

So yeah, screw feminism.

Though I do get the feeling that you're gonna use my mocking comment to a guy feeling the need to let everyone know he hates feminism to claim that I don't think men shouldn't so much as think about feminism in a way to keep a pointless argument going, I don't think men can't have opinions on Feminism. But I don't think those opinions matter.

First, I just wanted to sling some shit around, and you bit. It may be the Gaul in me, but fuck if I don't love having pointless arguments on the Internet. That shouldn't come as a surprise to you as I've done it before and you know it.

Second, that's quite the backtracking considering the exact quote was "Yeah, men don't get to have opinions on feminism, honey." and not "Yeah, men's opinions on feminism don't count, honey."

Third, that's quite rich because from time immemorial, feminists have claimed that every male problem is the result of patriarchy and that feminism cares about men's problems too, thus alternative discussions or alternative solutions specifically for men's issues are not needed. So you're telling me that the opinion I have on the ideology that is supposed to fix the ills I have enumerated above doesn't matter and shouldn't be heard. It's nice to see that you're honest enough to abandon that thin façade and say the truth, that you don't really give a crap. But then it would behoove feminists to let men interested in fixing their own problems try to do so instead of throwing temper tantrums when discussions happen. After all, following your logic, you don't have an opinion that matters, so sit down, eh?

Americans as a whole are a viciously racist and viciously uneducated people who'll drop to their knees at the most uncharismatic and pathetic demagogue imaginable.

You complain about the discrimination and stereotyping of trans people (which is fair) and yet immediately turn around and stereotype a country of 360 million people.

Hold on, let me try this.

Muslims as a whole are a viciously violent and viciously fanatical people who'll drop to their knees at the most insane and backwards prophet imaginable.

Does that sound like a reasonable assessment?

People have you like been saying drivel like this forever. "Fuck you, Americans! You're all dumb and stupid! Especially you redneck white guys in the South and the Midwest! You don't matter! You racist, sexist privileged little fucks! Fuck you!"

"Oh my God I can't believe you fucks did this! Your communities are dying, all the work's fucked off, you're getting high on pills and heroin and you WENT and voted for the guy who spoke your language and told you what you wanted to hear! How dare you not support the people who are telling you you're so privileged even though your life fucking blows! You fucking uneducated trash! Go fuck yourself! Eat shit!"

You seriously wonder why people don't like that and why they aren't on board with your brand of left?

Hey, hey, hey, everyone just calm down, Ok? Let's all keep it civil here.

I don't know how easy it is to bury hate like that.

The moment someone thinks "I'm a victim," they set themselves up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and victimisation. They start to think the world owes them something, and would rather complain about how damnably unfair everything is than actually try to achieve success. The same is true for neo-conservatives, radical feminists and militarised minority groups. It's the people who realise the world, and indeed the universe as a whole, doesn't give two shits about their existence, and who are willing to stop complaining and actually work for what they need and want, who have the best chance. Even then there are no guarantees.

The type of feminist bullshit espoused on the Internet and at university campuses these days, actually serves to empower the groups opposing them. People don't see or care for the ideals anyone fights for. They only look at how people behave, and that's pretty fucking scary, because neo-nazis sometimes have a properly peaceful demonstration.

Alright, I've calmed down now and I think it's time I clarify my positions on things and explain my feelings toward men.

I tried to remember the point of my life where I took the leap from being one of those "antifeminist egalitarian" types to being a Feminist and it all took me back to 2015 when I discovered the writings of Abdullah Ocalan - A man in his seventies. You can read his manifesto on Anarcho-Feminism, Liberating Life somewhere on the internet in PDF form, but to save you the time, the guy's feminism has always been far, far more radical and "manhating" than mine. It was under his influence that I made a 180 from an egalitarian who... Sorta dislikes feminism to having more extreme feminist beliefs than I do now, I even ID'd as a "Radical Feminist" for a while.

It was the influence of other men in my life, not just Ocalan but a few close friends and role models as well that lead me to adopting Feminism. Men who weren't afraid to call out shit when they saw it and tell things like it is, even if it made other men offended or uncomfortable. Men who saw the same shit I was increasingly seeing the longer I identified as a woman and unlike me, weren't afraid to get angry about it and cuss men over it. It was a guy who actually pissed me off with his jokes at the expense of men that made me think to myself why he was so okay making those kinds of jokes, him being a man himself. It made me question whether jokes making fun of men were the same as jokes making fun of women. It made me question a lot of the MRA talking points that I was sold into when I was a dumb 13 year old boy right before I started experiencing Gender Dysphoria for the first time.

Though I guess I still have memories of that oh so very dumb 13 year old boy gobsmacked by """Misandry""" in me and I understand people who are shocked by my words and accusations. My words outside of the Lesbian circles and radical left wing circles I hang out in 90% of the time are indeed quite harsh. And I apologize for that harshness. And additionally for that first comment, where I was more a bit pissy about multiple men feeling the need to make antifeminist jokes because they apparently misread my TERF joke.

My views of men are as nuanced as any group that makes up half the population. When I meet a man my first impression isn't "Oh, he's definitely a rapist and misogynist." I, for better or worse, think the best of the men I meet. I've met more and more men like the ones I described, and they're predominantly in my super late milennial/super early gen-z age group. And that gives me hope. I come to think of it can think mostly positive experiences with men. However, that's overshadowed by the rape survivors I've met, by the Lesbians I've met, by the trans women I've met, by the Bisexual women I've met, by the WOC I've met, by the interactions people I know have had with self described 'male feminists", by the #MeToo stories I've read. So I balance my experiences of men with the reality most other women have had with men, and I don't think that makes me a manhater. Bitter, yeah, but not a manhater. If I am, virtually all of the Lesbians I know are too. The Patriarchy and all that jazz.

Also Seroim, first off I'm an American born and bred. I haven't so much as stepped foot outside of the States. You don't have to defend me and my innocent wittle most powewful empire in human histowy . And secondly, as I said in this post, I've been an MRA before. I've been an antifeminist before. Too many times to count I've regurgitated the exact same talking points as you have to feminists. I couldn't care less in hearing them shouted back to me. 90% of the MRAs I've known in my life have outted themselves as crypto-right wingers, if not open bigots, so i don't care to hear about how the mean feminazis destroyed your little movement. Make another one.

I have always been of the opinion that if an apology, clarification or, generally, an attempt at de-escalation is being made mocking another person somewhat undermines the point.

And also we're speaking in an online forum, not Congress, cut the "democracy" bullshit.

Touche.
I won't argue with the rest of your first paragraph, because history suggests you're right that women need to take the lead on women's issues.

Also trump got elected because to be frank here, Americans as a whole are a viciously racist and viciously uneducated people who'll drop to their knees at the most uncharismatic and pathetic demagogue imaginable.

I mean, I guess we can discount sanctuary cities, advocacy groups, and everyone else who's working against racism, because, sure, fine, as you'd said before they're not necessarily 'fighting for their survival', but at the end of the day I'd rather have a million people behind my back for a lark than 200 people behind my back because they're fighting for their survival. Quality counts for something, but within a democratic context (which any change within American society implicitly requires, so, yes, saved, can't tell me to cut the democracy bullshit now, gotta take the small victories where I can find them), quantity is going to be what wins the day.
Unless I guess the quality we're talking about is money. Then, yeah, if those 200 people are multi-billionaires I'd rather have them too.