View Topic

Isn't that the same as number 4?

1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.

2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasoning behind any decision to revoke their Citizenship, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.

3) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trail.

4) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.

5) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.

6) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.

7) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.

The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization

Changes: Removed Elected as that could keep someone from the WHR because of possible abuse, while I don't think this would happen, I want to make sure that this is kept safe for the future of Wintreath
8 was added to prevent any possible alienation, and to keep a law from being passed saying you must be part of something to run for the Underhusen, or join the WHR. These may be unnecessary, but I'd rather have slightly redundant rights that can be used, and be there, then them not being there at all.

1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.

2) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trial for any infractions of Wintreath legislation, be informed of the reasoning behind any decision, and shall have the right to appeal that decision, unless otherwise stated by the Monarch in which case a justification will be provided.

3) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.

4) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.

5) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.

6) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.

7) The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization

Changes: I combined 2 and 3 as I feel revocation of citizenship also falls under a decision made by a fair trial. The last part of the changed 2 may be redundant with Wintermoot's current legislation, but I feel clarification between documents is always helpful.

@Chanku - There may very well be times where we want to keep someone out of the WHR, especially if a raider applies or someone that we have intelligence on that we can't share with the community in general. This is standard procedure for any region with a military. Also, the only way that a law could be passed adding requirements to the Underhusen would be for a Constitutional amendment to be passed allowing it. The section you're proposing could just as easily be amended to allow it as just adding in the requirement.

@Ducky911 - I have to respectfully disagree. There may be cases where we have to shoot first and ask questions later and revoke Citizenship, or when discretion is needed to revoke Citizenship from someone. They can still appeal the decision and receive their fair trial, but without the dangers posed of being forced to keep them on Citizen masking. This is standard practice for some regions, such as Lazarus. Also, as read your changes could be taken to mean I have the right to revoke someone's right to appeal a decision as long as they are informed why, and that's not a power I necessarily want.

Then would it be better to leave citizenship out of it altogether and leave it up to your legislation currently in place in the GToL? For example:

1) Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.

2) Citizens shall have the right to a fair trial for any infractions of Wintreath legislation, be informed of the reasoning behind any decision, and shall have the right to appeal that decision.

        a. For issues of citizenship see Decree 001: Concerning Regional Citizenship in the Great Tome of Law

3) Citizens shall have the right to manage their nations without interference, except for caps placed on the number of World Assembly endorsements for the protection of the legal Delegate.

4) Citizens shall have the right to petition for a redress of any perceived grievances.

5) Citizens shall not be required to join the World Assembly or to participate in any inter or extra-regional bodies.

6) Citizens shall have the right to stand for any elected government offices or Government Organization for which they qualify and to vote in any regional elections.

7) The Government may not establish any official religion, nor shall any test of religion or beliefs to be allowed to qualify for a Government Office or Government Organization

Because I don't necessarily think that citizenship needs to be directly addressed if you have already implemented legislation regarding the institution. But if the judiciary in whatever form has the right to revoke citizenship, it should be addressed and I feel that this is something that needs to be hammered out before the Declaration is finished. Because if shoot first ask questions later is a policy of the judiciary, I feel that it needs much stronger wording to be addressed in the Declaration. I also will defend the process of appealing a decision made through a trial that does not involve citizenship, which is why I have worded it so.

Or perhaps, it could be worded thus:

2) Citizens shall have the right to be informed of the reasons behind any decisions regarding infractions of Wintreath legislation, the right to a fair trial, and the right to appeal that decision.

This still covers citizenship and is a reworking that places a decision before a trial in wording but doesn't necessarily make it that way in all cases as no terms regarding time frame are used (as is also shown in the first iteration). It also doesn't implicate you once the judiciary is set up. But if you reserve your right to revoke citizenship without consent or consultation of the judiciary, I think it needs to have clause a in the previous rendition. I just think this can all be covered in one Right through interpretation and careful wording as I have never been a fan of redundancy.

Isn't that the same as number 4?

If I run now nobody will ever know I missed that.