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[Discussion]The Righteous Act
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trader
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  • The Righteous Act has been retracted.
    Spoiler
    Quote
    Praise be to the Great Tato, TADER, praise be.
    Well its time to introduce the first act of my career. Hope you all enjoy.

    Quote
    Title:
    1) This act shall be titled the "The Righteous Act".

    Amendments and Additions:
    2) The "The Procedural Rules of the Underhusen Act" shall be amended to add a section 17 which shall read as follows:

    Any Skrifa who introduces a proposal to the Underhusen at any time must prior to discussion of the proposal, its contents or matters related, praise the name of the Holy Tato, TADER, else the proposal be void at the discretion of the speaker. The Holy Tato must be praised prior to the discussion but it is not required to start all statements with a praise after the initial praising at the beginning of a topic.


    The speaker may only void the legislation being proposed not acts which have already been passed.


    Edit: Clarifying based on chanku's points.
    Edit: Removed the last line and changed legislation.
    Edit: The reference of TADER has been redacted. They must only praise the Holy Tato.
    1 person likes this post: Mathyland
    « Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 07:57:00 PM by trader »
    Remember, there is no reason to panic, nothing is on fire.
    trader
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    I of course support this act!
    1 person likes this post: trader
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    Chanku
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  • With this act, I have only one thought, "No." The reason being is that this act not only violates the Fundamental Laws, but the rights of Wintreans, grants great power to the speaker, and goes beyond just a light-hearted act. This act is not something that we should pass.

    With the act violating the Fundamental Laws, it does so by violating Article V, Section I. This section reads:
    Quote from: Fundamental Laws, Article V, Section I
    Citizens shall have the right to speak and to protest freely.
    This act violates said section by creating compulsory speech, something which is the very antithesis of free speech. While the proponents of this proposal may argue that it does not, with the powers it grants to the Speaker, it forces a Skrifa to say something in order to prevent an act from being terminated. Further the type of speech also violates another right of Wintreans, one which is not found in our Fundamental Laws, but is considered to be a fundamental right none-the-less. The law forces a Skrifa to not only speak, but to also worship the potato, a deity of the 'potato religion' of which a Skrifa may not be. It then grants the Speaker the authority to enforce the requirement, at their discretion. Further the law can be interpreted to grant the Speaker more powers than even I am comfortable with.

    Now, onto the powers granted. The law reads, at the time of posting,
    Quote
    Title:
    1) This act shall be titled the "The Righteous Act".

    Amendments and Additions:
    2) The "The Procedural Rules of the Underhusen Act" shall be amended to add a section 17 which shall read as follows:

    Any Skrifa who introduces a proposal to the Underhusen at any time must prior to discussion of the legislation, its contents or matters related, praise the name of the Holy Tato, TADER, else the legislation be void at the discretion of the speaker. The Holy Tato must be praised prior to the discussion but it is not required to start all statements with a praise after the initial praising at the beginning of a topic.

    While some may read it, and find it benign, this can be interpreted to allow the Speaker the authority to unilaterally repeal and terminate any law that does not worship the potato in the manner demanded by the law during a debate. This comes from the following line
    Quote
        ...else the legislation be void at the discretion of the speaker.

    However legislation is markedly different from proposals. If it used the wording as found at the start of the section, which is proposal, then it would clearly mark that it only applies to a proposal which has not yet been passed. However it does not. In not making that distinction it creates a reasonable interpretation. Further this interpretation of the law does not actually conflict with any other rule or procedure, and as the Court ruled in Case 001, Chanku v. Pengu - Wintermoot - 2015.08.29, if it does not conflict with any law or procedure then it is valid under the law. As such this can be reasonably construed to mean that any proposal which did not praise the potato can become void, even after becoming law, should the speaker wish to make it so. This has far reaching consequences, allowing the Speaker to single handedly reverse and repeal any or all of our pre-existing laws as they do not contain any such worship. Indeed because there is nothing suggestion the law can not be retroactively applied, such a reasonable interpretation exists. I hope the other Skrifa here agree, that this goes beyond a joke proposal with the powers it gives to the Speaker, and the powers it does grant to the Speaker are more expansive than anyone here should be comfortable with.

    I also wish to touch upon the potential future cries of, "It's just for fun!" or "It's not a serious proposal!" With that I must say, this act goes beyond something fun and silly; it goes beyond such a thing because it is not only operative, but grants large and far reaching powers to the Speaker. The law I suggested declaring the potato the holiest food was acceptable because it was not only non-operative, but had no legal requirement for any citizen to actually recognize it as such. The law for changing the speaker selection process was acceptable because, while operative, it did not actually grant any great power to anyone, instead it granted the position of Speaker, which is not that powerful of a position as it stands.

    As such I can not, indeed I will not, support this proposal and I must oppose it. I hope that my fellow Skrifa join me in this, and stand with me.

    Edit: I accidentally forgot to put the quote tags around something
    2 people like this post: taulover, BraveSirRobin
    « Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 11:41:01 PM by Chanku »
    See you later space cowboy.
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  • Thats... Actually a series of very very good points... I'm honestly baffled it never occurred to me that the law was so open, but I saw it as such a funny thing that it never occurred to me to look at it that way. Good on you Chanku!
    1 person likes this post: BraveSirRobin
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    Chanku
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  • I will state, that while trader has addressed the concern of the powers of the Speaker, the concerns of the violation of rights and violation of the Fundamental Law still remain. Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any way that this can be resolved with what the bill is trying to accomplish.
    1 person likes this post: taulover
    See you later space cowboy.
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    taulover
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  • I don't think Chanku's criticisms have been fully addressed. After all, this still gives the Speaker powers to shoot down any proposals they dislike.

    And why the unconventional use of "Tader" in reference to the Holy Potatoe? Is trader perhaps going to refuse to allow proposals to proceed if they don't use this name, which clearly is a reference to his own?
    2 people like this post: BraveSirRobin, Chanku
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    Wintreath:
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    taulover
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  • As I stated in the Citizen discussion thread, I believe that, taking into account Robin's proposal, we would be better off doing this as an Underhusen Resolution (which, as far as I can see, is the first one ever!?). The following is my proposal, adapted from Robin's revision of trader's proposal and taking into account Chanku's suggestions:
    Quote
    Title
    1) This resolution shall be titled the "The Righteous Potatoe Resolution".

    Resolution
    2) The Nineteenth Underhusen, believing it to be the desires of the citizenry, encourages any Skrifa to, before proposing any legislation, praise our Starchy Majesty, the Wonderful Potatoe. The Holy Tuber should be praised prior to the discussion, but praise is not required to start all statements after the initial praise at the beginning of discussion.
    2 people like this post: BraveSirRobin, Chanku
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    Wintreath:
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    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
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    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
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    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
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  • Any thoughts, criticisms, etc. before I motion to vote on my proposed resolution?
    Résumé
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 8 April 2015 - present
    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    RP Guild Councillor: 9 February 2016 - 6 March 2018
    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
    Skrifa of the 19th Underhusen: 7 December 2016 - 9 February 2017
    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
    Ambassador to the Versutian Federation: 18 August 2017 - 22 March 2018
    Thane of Integration: 29 September 2017 - 7 March 2018
    Speaker of the 24th Underhusen: 10 October 2017 - 7 December 2017
    October 2017 Wintreath's Finest: 4 November 2017
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    February 2018 Wintreath's Finest: 5 March 2018
    Thane of Embassy Dispatches / Foreign Releases and Information / Foreign Dispatches: 7 March 2018 - 15 March 2020
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    March 2019 Wintreath's Finest: 4 April 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 12 April 2019 - 23 October 2020
    Commendation of Wintreath: 24 September 2020
    Peer of the Overhusen: 9 December 2020 - 8 February 2021
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    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
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    Chanku
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  • I motion to vote on taulover's proposal and I motion to table trader's proposal.
    See you later space cowboy.
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    trader
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  • I'll retract my proposal but i'll keep the topic cause of tau's post.
    Remember, there is no reason to panic, nothing is on fire.
    trader
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  • I motion to vote on taulover's proposal and I motion to table trader's proposal.
    I second this motion.
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    • The Potato Pope
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    taulover
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  • I third Chanku's motion because there's no rules against it. :P
    Résumé
    Wintreath:
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    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    RP Guild Councillor: 9 February 2016 - 6 March 2018
    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
    Skrifa of the 19th Underhusen: 7 December 2016 - 9 February 2017
    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
    Ambassador to the Versutian Federation: 18 August 2017 - 22 March 2018
    Thane of Integration: 29 September 2017 - 7 March 2018
    Speaker of the 24th Underhusen: 10 October 2017 - 7 December 2017
    October 2017 Wintreath's Finest: 4 November 2017
    Speaker pro tempore of the 25th Underhusen: 9 December 2017 - 7 February 2018
    Wintreath's Finest of 2017: 6 January 2018
    Werewolf XIV host: 20 January 2018 - 23 February 2018
    February 2018 Wintreath's Finest: 5 March 2018
    Thane of Embassy Dispatches / Foreign Releases and Information / Foreign Dispatches: 7 March 2018 - 15 March 2020
    Speaker of the 28th Underhusen: 10 June 2018 - 7 August 2018
    Second Patriarch of the Noble House of Valeria: 10 October 2018 - present
    Arena Game 6 Host: 28 December 2018 - 9 March 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 29 January 2019 - 12 February 2019
    Speaker of the 32nd Underhusen: 12 February 2019 - 8 April 2019
    March 2019 Wintreath's Finest: 4 April 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 12 April 2019 - 23 October 2020
    Commendation of Wintreath: 24 September 2020
    Peer of the Overhusen: 9 December 2020 - 8 February 2021
    Vice Chancellor of the Landsraad: 26 May 2021 - 15 September 2022
    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
    Regional Stability Squad: 28 February 2023 - present
    Minecraft Server Admin: 8 March 2023 - present

    Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion:
    Plebeian: 16 April 2014 - 21 July 2014
    Patrician: 21 July 2014 - present
    Adeptus Mechanicus: 24 October 2014 - 16 November 2014
    Co-founder of New Hyperion: 29 October 2014 - present
    Lord of Propaganda: 16 November 2014 - present
    Mapmaker for Official Region RP: 27 November 2015 - present
    WACom Delegate: 11 November 2017 - present
    Other positions: Hyperian Guardsman, Hyperian Marine (Rank: Scout)
    taulover
    • Seeker of Knowledge
    • Posts: 13,190
    • Karma: 4,243
    • Regional Stability Squad
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Valeria
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    taulover
  • Regional Stability Squad
  • Seeker of Knowledge
  • @trader
    I believe you have three more days under the Procedural Rules to open the vote, though typically this is done ASAP.
    Résumé
    Wintreath:
    Citizen: 8 April 2015 - present
    From the Ashes RP Game Master: 29 November 2015 - 24 July 2018
    Skydande Vakt Marshal: 29 November 2015 - 28 February 2017
    Skrifa of the 13th Underhusen: 13 December 2015 - 8 February 2016
    RP Guild Councillor: 9 February 2016 - 6 March 2018
    Ambassador to Lovely: 23 February 2016 - 17 August 2016
    Werewolf VII co-host: 11 May 2016 - 5 June 2016
    Skrifa of the 18th Underhusen: 8 October 2016 - 7 December 2016
    Ambassador to Balder: 1 December 2016 - 1 March 2022
    Skrifa of the 19th Underhusen: 7 December 2016 - 9 February 2017
    Ambassador to the INWU: 11 March 2017 - 1 March 2022
    Ambassador to the Versutian Federation: 18 August 2017 - 22 March 2018
    Thane of Integration: 29 September 2017 - 7 March 2018
    Speaker of the 24th Underhusen: 10 October 2017 - 7 December 2017
    October 2017 Wintreath's Finest: 4 November 2017
    Speaker pro tempore of the 25th Underhusen: 9 December 2017 - 7 February 2018
    Wintreath's Finest of 2017: 6 January 2018
    Werewolf XIV host: 20 January 2018 - 23 February 2018
    February 2018 Wintreath's Finest: 5 March 2018
    Thane of Embassy Dispatches / Foreign Releases and Information / Foreign Dispatches: 7 March 2018 - 15 March 2020
    Speaker of the 28th Underhusen: 10 June 2018 - 7 August 2018
    Second Patriarch of the Noble House of Valeria: 10 October 2018 - present
    Arena Game 6 Host: 28 December 2018 - 9 March 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 29 January 2019 - 12 February 2019
    Speaker of the 32nd Underhusen: 12 February 2019 - 8 April 2019
    March 2019 Wintreath's Finest: 4 April 2019
    Librarian of the Underhusen: 12 April 2019 - 23 October 2020
    Commendation of Wintreath: 24 September 2020
    Peer of the Overhusen: 9 December 2020 - 8 February 2021
    Vice Chancellor of the Landsraad: 26 May 2021 - 15 September 2022
    Arena Game 8 Host: 10 June 2021 - 19 July 2021
    June 2021 Wintreath's Finest: 5 July 2021
    Regional Stability Squad: 28 February 2023 - present
    Minecraft Server Admin: 8 March 2023 - present

    Aura Hyperia/New Hyperion:
    Plebeian: 16 April 2014 - 21 July 2014
    Patrician: 21 July 2014 - present
    Adeptus Mechanicus: 24 October 2014 - 16 November 2014
    Co-founder of New Hyperion: 29 October 2014 - present
    Lord of Propaganda: 16 November 2014 - present
    Mapmaker for Official Region RP: 27 November 2015 - present
    WACom Delegate: 11 November 2017 - present
    Other positions: Hyperian Guardsman, Hyperian Marine (Rank: Scout)
    taulover
    • Seeker of Knowledge
    • Posts: 13,190
    • Karma: 4,243
    • Regional Stability Squad
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Valeria
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
    trader
  • Former Citizen
  • Wintreath's Unofficial Official Merchant
  • Motion passed.
    Remember, there is no reason to panic, nothing is on fire.
    trader
    • Wintreath's Unofficial Official Merchant
    • Posts: 303
    • Karma: 210
    • Mercury 'trader' Kestar
    • Former Citizen
    • Pronouns
      He/Him/His
      Familial House
      Kaizer
      Wintreath Nation
      Logged
     
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