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Which Fallout: New Vegas Faction Would You Join?
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Gerrick
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  • First off, if you haven't played the near masterpiece that is Fallout: New Vegas, go buy it on Steam for like a few bucks right now. If, however, you have, read on. (Well, read on even if you haven't, anyway. :P)

    Fallout: New Vegas is famed for its immersive world with dozens of unique factions that interact with/behave towards each other in unique ways. It's why people still play and talk about the game today. So, the big question is: If you were the Courier in FNV, which major faction would you choose to follow to the end, and which of the minor factions (if any) would you also join (were it possible in-game)?

    Major Factions
    New California Republic
    Caesar's Legion
    Robert House
    Yes Man (Independent New Vegas)



    A few years ago I played through by following each major faction, but I think if I were actually "in-game", I would choose to follow either Mr. House or go for an independent New Vegas, though I'm leaning towards the former.

    Caesar's Legion has next to no redeeming qualities: they're fanatical slavers and killers of "profligates" (read: anyone who isn't made to join the Legion or made a slave), though I guess they do bring a certain amount of order and stability (and their theme is kinda cool :P). They're the blatant bad guys without much grey area like the other main factions have. Needless to say, I don't consider joining them at all.

    The NCR, though (somewhat) a democracy with protection and civil rights for its citizens, it's become corrupt and its expansionism/militarism is getting a little out of control. Were it the NCR vs the Legion, I'd obviously choose the NCR; but given the other options, I think the NCR should give up the Mojave to focus more on developing its current lands on the West Coast.

    In my opinion, an independent New Vegas would be ideal as freedom and independence are some of the most important values to me. Anarchy in a place like the Mojave, however, could prove to be more dangerous than it's worth. It would require the Courier to effectively use the Securitrons throughout the Mojave to destroy raider gangs and keep the peace. Also, no matter how benevolent the Courier is, (s)he will eventually die. Failure to put in place a clear line of succession or other capable and benevolent leader/system has been the fall of many great civilizations (another reason why the Legion isn't the best choice). And if the Courier wasn't able to upgrade the Securitrons, it will be true brutal anarchy with raider gangs most likely taking control.

    This leads me to Mr. House. Yes, he is a cold autocrat, but I believe he's the best hope for the future of New Vegas, the Mojave, and even mankind. He actually has a plan to redevelop the area, and as a virtual immortal he sees the long game rather than being blinded by brief power. Look at what he's been able to accomplish from staying inside the Lucky 38 and with his limited number of Securitions. Now imagine what could be done with an upgraded Securitron army and the full power of the Hoover Dam. As a pragmatist and utilitarian, he may seem to forget about the common man or slums around New Vegas, but he sees the larger picture. And when he eventually gets the resources (and with the Courier at his side), he will do what he can to help them. I think giving up political power for the sake of the advancement of humanity is worth it. Though I could be wrong.

    As for the minor factions, I think I might have joined the Followers of the Apocalypse as they seem to be the only faction trying to actually better the world around them. If not them, I'd probably just join one of the towns -- maybe Goodsprings, Primm, or Westside (and join its militia).

    So what do you all think?
    « Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 07:00:34 PM by Gerrick »

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    Gerrick
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    Wintermoot
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  • But...but...but...democracy! :P

    I have to admit, I've never played it...I was a huge fan of Fallout and Fallout 2 when it was under Interplay, but I tried 3 and wasn't really into it. It ended up feeling like futuristic Elder Scrolls with guns instead of the unique and quirky game it was before.


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  • While the majority of your analysis is spot on, Gerrick, I think the real question should be highly dependent on the character you play.
    Obviously someone played with Evil karma wouldn't make the same decisions (or at least for the same reasons, which is also roughly as important) as someone with Good karma. Someone trying to look out for the best interests of the Mojave (perhaps played as a Mojave native) would make some fairly different choices from someone played as more of an NCR native (which would also be reasonable considering that your character has apparently made quite a few runs in the New Reno area), which doesn't even necessitate working for the NCR, as Caesar was also an NCR native. And of course it all really fundamentally depends on just how you see Ulysses throughout the course of the DLCs; if you agree with him on some fundamental level, then Independence, or House at the most, is the most logical choice.

    Caesar's Legion appears at least initially fundamentally unappealing, of course, largely because it's a brutal fascist misogynist state. But I think there's a few observations that can be made there in favor of it.
    1: It's taken like 80 (I think the exact number is either 76 or 79, I don't remember) tribes all across the western US and forged them into an army. It stomps out their individual cultures, but, I mean, so does the NCR. There obviously isn't as much divergence across the NCR as there is with tribals, as we most obviously see with the Dead Horses/White Legs (I mean, these dudes speak a fundamentally different language supposedly, at least to each other, even though for simplicity they all speak English to us; nor would it make sense for Graham and Caesar to be translators and linguists for the Followers if everyone just spoke English), but the re-formation of a monoculture is pretty crucial to an overall idea of a nation. Obviously this monoculture has a lot of issues with it, but some of those issues can be resolved, as detailed later.
    2: One of the major points Caesar articulates is that he has his Roman Legion, but he has no Rome. An army must be run on fundamentally different principles than a state, and for all that he lays claim to having a state, it's apparently one without a capital city. The conquest of New Vegas and reforming it into his New Rome will likely allow for the transformation of the culture underlying the Legion into one that is less army, and more state. That will likely tone down a great deal of the martial law aspects of his rule, simply because in order for his state to meaningfully survive in that capacity (as opposed to simply breaking down into a series of large raider bands), it will no longer make sense for the majority of the manpower to be dedicated towards conquest.
    3: Playing a female courier (especially one with good karma, and ideally one who can fix Caesar's brain tumor) who is Caesar's strong right hand seems insane. But I think that that would lay the fundamental groundwork for greater equality of the sexes, because it forcibly proves that Caesar's conquest would have failed without the intervention of this woman. For a society whose basis is at least partially founded on the idea that women are fundamentally inferior, seeing this refuted would likely prove a major step forward to the ideals of equality, and if a good character, will likely pressure Caesar to tone down the worst of his excesses - a move that might not be so effective were Lanius, who is a conqueror through and through rather than a would-be statesman, to come to power.
    4: Breaking the Legion at Hoover Dam (with or without Caesar and/or Lanius' death) simply says that the Legion will turn its eye eastward and re-martial its forces. There will be no changes in how things run (barring the death of both); you have 'saved' the people of this area for the time being, but the people of the east will likely continue to suffer under their rule, whereas there is the very real possibility of change per points 2 and 3 for them above. Should both die, the Legion breaks up into raider bands, who will be even worse for the east than if Caesar and/or Lanius lived. Utilitarianism, bruh.
    5: Rome's cool, bruh.
    That said, there's a lot to be said for the fact that most of the time, you will be operating in opposition to Caesar's forces. Like, a whole lot. That in and of itself builds the idea that you should just crush them, simply because it's hard to stop fighting dudes.

    NCR has a lot of points in its favor, but a lot of points against too. Admittedly not as many as the Legion.
    1: NCR wants to bring back the US. That's a dope dream. Except the part where the US is a different US from the one we know (Commonwealths? What?), and it's also the US that invaded Canada without provocation (dick move), and also ended the world in nuclear fire (pretty dick move). But it's also the easiest culture to sell people on, simply on the basis of 'it's what we used to do, and would be doing, if it wasn't for the whole 'nuclear apocalypse' thing'. And as articulated above, while it flies in the face of our globalist multicultural ways now to want to create a monoculture, because diversity breeds strength and all that, it only does that if there is already a nation behind it. In light of few things keeping people together, it's imperative that people at the very least share a common culture if the goal is to rebuild civil society, to prevent civil war.
    2: Capitalism. Hate it or love it, NCR's got it. And, on the one hand, there's a lot to be said for it, since - Gun Runners! Crimson Caravan! Colonial efforts! The fact that people have the spare money to go be fucking tourists in Vegas! But then there's always the bad flipside to capitalism. Crimson Caravan having people assassinated and caravans attacked for cheap buyouts, or doing indesp against the Gun Runners. Colonials coming in being seen as the bad guys because they're displacing the locals. And Brahmin Barons exploiting the working class. But all of these mask the underlying evidence we see that capitalism evidently works in the NCR, because look at Boston! There's no Gun Runners to supply you with weapons, there's no Crimson Caravan to promote free and easy trade between communities, hell, there's no Mojave Express to provide courier services should you need them. NCR has built the underlying components of a state thanks to their capitalist institutions; without them, Boston (and the Capital Wasteland too for that matter but I dislike Fallout 3) only has some scattered, disparate communities with relatively little linking them together, even ones in incredibly close proximity like Goodneighbour and Diamond City. Chrissakes, they have a fucking army with standardized equipment. That's nuts.
    3: NCR is clearly relatively reasonable. House or Caesar won't work with the Brotherhood. They're a threat that needs to be disposed of. But NCR, who's been at war with the fuckers, is willing to make a peace deal with them and allow them to coexist. Same deal with the Enclave! Or the Khans (who Caesar will fuck over and exploit, and House just doesn't care about), or the Kings, or any of the other groups! Sure, the NCR has problems with them, but the other two factions will roll over the vast majority of them; only NCR allows these groups to live and let live (admittedly with your intervention, but, I mean, every faction only wins with your intervention anyway because you're a magic person).

    I'm losing more and more steam as I go, so I'm just going to speed through the rest.

    House has a lot of things in his favor too, but briefly:
    He's also a capitalist (a 'bad part' of NCR that I've nonetheless shown can be a good thing);
    He's also an autocrat (a 'bad part' of the Legion that can also be a good thing);
    He's also a believer in a monoculture (albeit one that allows for subcultures; he's forcibly made the various Vegas tribes 'more recognizably American', but in ways that allow them to highlight their differences) (a bad part of both, really, but one that's probably beneficial to society as a whole);
    But he's also a 'bad businessman' who seems pretty happy to stomp out various groups (e.g. the Brotherhood, the Kings, and of course he gives 0 shits about Freeside).
    He's really the middle ground between the Legion and NCR, while allowing for better opportunities for advancement for the Courier (you're his right hand man, which is as high as you can go with the possible exception of Caesar?), and having the distinct advantage of being the earliest guy you work for. As players of games, we've been trained in an almost Pavlovian style to instinctively trust the guy giving us quests, and boy howdy did he give us a quest, since he's the driver of the majority of the main plot - very much in the same way that the Legion is easily presented as the bad guy, House is presented as the good guy, just from a 'who's giving me a main quest thing to do' perspective.

    Since it's Bethesda, though, you can just kill him and everyone else really and go be Independent.
    Which is terrible for society in the long run, but I've got a lot of Hobbesian viewpoints, so I'm a firm believer in government as a civilizing influence over people's innate barbarity. And since you're just one dude (albeit one with a shitload of Securitrons), it could also be a pretty awful thing for the people of the Mojave, especially if you have evil karma.

    Next time: I edit this so everything gets the same amount of love I gave Caesar!
    And then I talk about Ulysses, and how fucking crucial he is to picking sides in New Vegas.
    2 people like this post: Gerrick, Aethelia
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    Gerrick
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  • Wow, very well written. I meant to pose the question as if you yourself were the Courier, however, not if you were roleplaying a character, so the karma system doesn't really matter.

    I never got close enough to Caesar to understand that he wanted New Vegas to be his Rome. Really, I never understood Caesar's goal other than to amass power. I mean, he doesn't seem evil or anything, and he seems very intelligent and self aware, yet he could have gone about things so differently. Yes, he likely wouldn't have been nearly as successful, but still I guess I don't really understand what he's trying to achieve other than a world ruled by the Legion (with all of the negative aspects of it). And even if he were to tone down the extreme bits, I doubt most members of the Legion would follow suit. They're the already-militaristic tribals who've been forced into the mold of Legionnaires -- I doubt they'd so easily or truly become typical Roman citizens. Just look at Lanius. Can't see him as anything other than a monster, and he's Caesar's heir. Regardless of what happens to the Legion in the Mojave, it will end in breaking down into a series of large raider bands as that's all it is essentially. So I don't see very much light in the Legion tunnel.

    I agree with pretty much everything you said about the NCR, though I still haven't played Fallout 4 yet, so I can't really comment on that. The NCR just needs to get their shit straight before expanding out to the Mojave is all I'm saying. "Cool their jets" as it were. Not that the US is the ideal government I'd want to emulate, but there are many much worse.

    On Ulysses: I'll be honest, I had no idea what that whole DLC was about. I think when I played through it, I stopped playing for a bit then just forgot everything or something. Ulysses was just some guy that hated me for accidentally blowing up his utopia or something, and he always talked in riddles or some gumbled up metaphors about symbols of the Old World and shit. Looking over the Fallout wiki, he seems to have no hope for any of the factions because they're all trying too hard to copy the "Old World" and so will lead to a similar fate (yet the fact that he has such a fetish for the Old World seems ironic to me -- just look at the symbol on his duster).

    I am much awaiting your edit for more in-depth analyses. :D

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    Gerrick
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  • NECROPOST!

    I watched a video recently related to this topic, which got me thinking about it again. Posting this here for posterity or in case anyone else is interested. So, I give you an argument in favor of Caesar's Legion (though it's more just the Legion over the NCR, not over Mr. House/Independent Vegas -- and, in fact, at the end it kinda argues that Mr. House or an Independent Vegas might actually be better for or at least the future of the Mojave Wasteland).


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    Aethelia
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  • Might be funniest if the Church of the Children of Atom reached the other coast and won New Vegas somehow.
    Without them, I liked the Followers of the Apocalypse more than the main factions.

    Though, something about Doc's idea was appealing to me:
    Spoiler
    "Playing a female courier (especially one with good karma, and ideally one who can fix Caesar's brain tumor) who is Caesar's strong right hand seems insane. But I think that that would lay the fundamental groundwork for greater equality of the sexes, because it forcibly proves that Caesar's conquest would have failed without the intervention of this woman. For a society whose basis is at least partially founded on the idea that women are fundamentally inferior, seeing this refuted would likely prove a major step forward to the ideals of equality, and if a good character, will likely pressure Caesar to tone down the worst of his excesses - a move that might not be so effective were Lanius, who is a conqueror through and through rather than a would-be statesman, to come to power."
    Just thinking about that makes me want to reconsider the idea of trying the Legion once before my PS3 gets too much dust now that I have the Switch.
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  • I mean, that's how I justified that playthrough to myself.
    Which was a tough sell once I discovered I couldn't do the arena quest since I was running a female character, and I was like 'wow okay this is BS', only to belatedly realize 'oh maybe that's the point'.
    I felt a little chastened after that I was 'okay' with the slavery (insofar as it wasn't a dealbreaker), but the moment I couldn't do a quest, that was almost the dealbreaker.
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  • I don't feel like making a long old post explaining why, but the NCR 100%.

    An independent Vegas would just be a glorified tribe that probably wouldn't expand much outside of the Mojave, while the NCR is the most powerful democratic power in the region. The NCR is corrupt and imperialistic, but they've withstood the test of time and they hold far more manpower and resources than any independent New Vegas could ever dream of. Long term, looking into the creation of a stable democracy in the West Coast, and putting the heat on the Legion and similarly backwards societies, you gotta go with the NCR.
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  • I don't feel like making a long old post explaining why, but the NCR 100%.

    An independent Vegas would just be a glorified tribe that probably wouldn't expand much outside of the Mojave, while the NCR is the most powerful democratic power in the region. The NCR is corrupt and imperialistic, but they've withstood the test of time and they hold far more manpower and resources than any independent New Vegas could ever dream of. Long term, looking into the creation of a stable democracy in the West Coast, and putting the heat on the Legion and similarly backwards societies, you gotta go with the NCR.
    Yay something I disagree with!

    What's wrong with an independent Vegas that doesn't expand outside of the Mojave? Why do there need to be large, expansionist nations like the NCR or Legion? And if the Courier goes with Mr. House over an Independent Vegas, it'd be much more than just a glorified tribe -- it could be the one truly great city in wasteland America.

    With the logic that power and longevity are ideal, the Enclave -- which has existed since the bombs dropped -- would then have had the most legitimate claim over the US (were it not for the actions of the Lone Wanderer in Fallout 3). The Enclave, in fact, is an example of what may end up happening to the NCR.

    And if the NCR loses the Mojave, it'll still have a strong grasp over the West Coast. Its victory at the Battle of Hoover Dam 2 is not necessary for the Legion to lose nor is it necessary for the survival of the NCR. In fact, if the NCR doesn't win, it'll become less hawkish and expansionistic, shifting its focus and time and energy inwards on the area and people already inside the NCR.



    As a side note: I reviewed the FNV ending slides and made a spreadsheet (as I am want to do) listing the short-term effects on a 5-point scale for each minor faction, town, and companion when each major faction wins. The numbers might be slightly off -- and it assumes the best possible outcome for each minor faction/town/companion -- but it shows that the known results on the Mojave from best to worst is: NCR > Independent Vegas > Mr. House > Caesar's Legion. These are, of course, short-term results since the ending slides only show what happened in the immediate future for each faction/person. Long term, it could be very different. Thought it was interesting, nonetheless.
    Faction Ending Favorability

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  • I don't feel like making a long old post explaining why, but the NCR 100%.

    An independent Vegas would just be a glorified tribe that probably wouldn't expand much outside of the Mojave, while the NCR is the most powerful democratic power in the region. The NCR is corrupt and imperialistic, but they've withstood the test of time and they hold far more manpower and resources than any independent New Vegas could ever dream of. Long term, looking into the creation of a stable democracy in the West Coast, and putting the heat on the Legion and similarly backwards societies, you gotta go with the NCR.
    Yay something I disagree with!

    What's wrong with an independent Vegas that doesn't expand outside of the Mojave? Why do there need to be large, expansionist nations like the NCR or Legion? And if the Courier goes with Mr. House over an Independent Vegas, it'd be much more than just a glorified tribe -- it could be the one truly great city in wasteland America.

    With the logic that power and longevity are ideal, the Enclave -- which has existed since the bombs dropped -- would then have had the most legitimate claim over the US (were it not for the actions of the Lone Wanderer in Fallout 3). The Enclave, in fact, is an example of what may end up happening to the NCR.

    And if the NCR loses the Mojave, it'll still have a strong grasp over the West Coast. Its victory at the Battle of Hoover Dam 2 is not necessary for the Legion to lose nor is it necessary for the survival of the NCR. In fact, if the NCR doesn't win, it'll become less hawkish and expansionistic, shifting its focus and time and energy inwards on the area and people already inside the NCR.



    As a side note: I reviewed the FNV ending slides and made a spreadsheet (as I am want to do) listing the short-term effects on a 5-point scale for each minor faction, town, and companion when each major faction wins. The numbers might be slightly off -- and it assumes the best possible outcome for each minor faction/town/companion -- but it shows that the known results on the Mojave from best to worst is: NCR > Independent Vegas > Mr. House > Caesar's Legion. These are, of course, short-term results since the ending slides only show what happened in the immediate future for each faction/person. Long term, it could be very different. Thought it was interesting, nonetheless.
    Faction Ending Favorability

    5=best, 1=worst
    " it could be the one truly great city in wasteland America."
    Shady Sands, the Boneyard, Arroyo, they all exist. New Vegas is nothing more than a gambling town with semi-modern infrastructure. And that's only if we exclude Freeside, West Vegas, etc. which are far from developed. New Vegas is a glorified tribe, because that's what it is at the end of the day: A tribe. The NCR is trying to build a new federal republic with human rights, American common law and democracy. The Legion is seeking to shock the West Coast into a unified and powerful nation through mimicking the brutality of the Roman Empire. New Vegas simply seeks to exist as an independent confederation of local tribes that subsist off of gambling, prostitution and human trafficking. Hence, "glorified tribe".

    As for the NCR, that's an optimistic assessment. Virtually all of the NCR characters in the game leave the impression that the NCR at this point in time is in an extremely weak and unstable situation. Heck, a reputable NCR commander went as far as to become a spy for the Legion, because he was so certain that if the NCR kept its presence in the region, it'd collapse. That's how fragile California is. And while you might take that as evidence, I doubt a gargantuan and demoralizing defeat is going to defeat is going to do any better than the Mojave becoming the NCR's Iraq. The NCR is already suffering from an overextended military, an incompetent federal government, regional strongmen and corporate interests. If they lose at Hoover Dam, if the NCR military is proven without a doubt to be incapable, if Kimbal's presidency becomes doomed, it could become a Rubicon moment. Be it economic collapse, dissolution, civil war or military dictatorship. And right then, you have the most advanced, prosperous, and just nation in the region poofed off the face of the Earth, so that a small town of casinos and sex slaves may enjoy sovereignty.
    On tumblr at opabinia-regalis.tumblr.com

    Good night, ladies, good night, sweet ladies, good night, good night.
    Violet
    Doc
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  • The NCR's position is incredibly tenuous, but I would hesitate to say that it's domestic situation is in any peril. Kimball personally is in a terrible spot, politically speaking, because he's invested so much capital into an NCR victory at Hoover Dam, but the NCR as a whole can weather a House victory at Hoover Dam. Not so much a Legion victory, because in the end slideshow the Legion sweeps through the NCR with ease if they win, but a victory for House is not going to destroy the NCR.

    Honestly, I think House is the best candidate to 'win' from a 'mankind's overall development path' standpoint. He's the type who would look at the Bright Ghouls and think 'ah, those are the experts I need', because one of his stated goals is to 'search for planets unpolluted by the wrath and folly of a bygone generation' (which makes me question now - how much is he Howard Hughes, and how much is he Elon Musk?). While I think his timeframe is aggressive (50 years to get back into orbit? 100 for interstellar travel? Heck, 20 for his life-extension technology?) he's the only one who's actively saying 'yo let's be better' than the Old World, instead of saying 'let's bring it back' or screeching 'PROOOOOFLIGAAAAATES'.
    Sure, he's an unrepentant corporatist autocratic dickbag, but the man gets results. And considering that so much of post-apocalyptic life is 'choose the least shitty option', the option that ends with 'let's develop better technology, and also go to space' is the one I'd side with.
    Admittedly I also sided with the Institute in 4.
    Proud Burner
    Doc
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