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[Which Version of the Proposal do you prefer?]

Which Version of the Proposal do you prefer?

The Expansion of Citizenship Amendment Act

0 (0%)

The Restricted Citizenship Act

2 (18.2%)

The Community Citizenship Amendment Act

9 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Placing this here so citizens can have their say on this; I will note that this is a poll not a vote, so the option that wins out above, while it might convince some Skrifa, won't necessarily be the one chosen by the Underhusen. Thanks

Here is what I posted in the UH if anyone wishes to comment.

Hey fellow Skrifa,
So this was an important issue for me last term and it remains so. I would like to make citizenship accessible to those who don't necessarily have a nation in our NS region, though how we go about that is variable.

Currently there are 3 possible proposals:

Mine- in which the Storting can select someone to be a citizen without a nation at will. Kind of like Paragon status.

Expansion of Citizenship Amendment Act

Expansion of Citizenship Amendment Act

Title
1) This act shall be titled as the Expansion of Citizenship Amendment Act.

Amendments and Additions
2) The Citizenship and Demonym Act shall be amended to add section 6, which shall read as follows:

6. Expansion of Citizenship
  6.1 The requirement of a citizenship nation, noted in section 2.2 of this act, can be waived without granting Paragon status as stated in section 3.
  6.2 This exemption may be issued or repealed by either the Monarch or Storting.
  6.3 In the case of the Storting, an act titled "expansion of the <relevant citizen>'s citizenship" should be drafted which would outline any specific requirements that the Storting wished to place in this case.

Chanku's proposal- Places restrictions on those that don't have a nation (like preventing them from standing in elections) and adding a post requirement

The Restricted Citizenship Act

Title
1. The Restricted Citizenship Act

Amendments
2. Section 2 shall be amended to add subsection 7, which shall read as follows:

2.7 Should a citizen have had their citizenship nation CtE, and they have been online within one week of the last check and make at least an average of 10 posts a day then the Monarch, or the Storting, may grant the citizen a restricted citizenship. Upon gaining this citizenship type the person shall get full citizenship upon returning their citizenship nation and informing the person tasked with maintaining citizenship. After gaining this citizenship type they must meet an average 10 posts a day and be online at least twice a week.

3. Section 2.7, shall be amended to add subsection 1 which shall read:

2.7.1 A citizen with restricted citizenship may loose it upon the act of the Monarch, an act of the Storting, or upon failing to meet the requirements. Upon loosing it all citizenship shall be lost. Further revocation of restricted citizenship shall not be counted as revocation of citizenship within the Storting.

4. Section 2.7 shall be amended to add subsection 2 which shall read:

2.7.2 People with restricted citizenship are not be eligible to run or stand in elections or to assume office. For the purposes of elected offices held prior to gaining this status, they shall be considered non-citizens. People with restricted citizenship may, however, vote.

 And Wintermoot's proposal- Amends the requirements of citizenship across the board to be eligible if they post on a regular basis.

Community Citizenship Amendment Act

The Community Citizenship Amendment Act

Title
1) This Act shall be cited as the Community Citizenship Amendment Act.

Amendments
2) Section 2.2 of the Citizenship and Demonyn Act shall be amended as follows:

Previous Text:

2.2 Citizens are required to keep the nation which they gained membership with within the region unless they inform the person (or government agency) empowered to accept or reject citizenship applications by section 2.4 of this act.

Amended Text:

2.2 Citizenship may be maintained by one of the following methods:
2.2.1 Keeping the NationStates nation which they gained membership with within the Wintreath region
2.2.2 Making at least five (5) posts on the Wintreath forums during the previous calendar month, beginning with their second calendar month as a Citizen

I would like if possible to have made a decision on one of these (or another proposal) in the next week.

I'll be frank, I don't think Chanku's should even be considered with that "10 posts a day" requirement.

Twice a week I can understand...but you're talking they'll have to make 35 posts both days, 70 posts a week if they're only online twice a week...which is far unreasonable.

Personally, I think just allowing the Storting to waive it after a period of time and allowing permanent citizens is ideal, but I also understand that this cheapens Paragon/honorary citizenship status.

That being said, I think Wintermoot's counter/compromise proposal of 5 posts each previous calendar month is far more reasonable and realistic of an option.  It doesn't stress too much from people (and those who don't play NS anymore don't have to worry about reviving a useless nation), and it's still warranting some sort of activity from newer members if they want to continue being citizens.

Just a note: my proposal's requirement has always been open and subject to change. I have no issue with someone making it much more lenient.   

I guess I just also fail to see the relevance of it.  So if they're making the effort to post, but let their nation CTE, then they can only have restricted citizenship?  But even though they can't stand or run in elections or assume any office (even though the latter is and should always be Wintermoot's decision if they're still considered a citizen of any form).

That's where I see the appeal of Wintermoot's compromise more.  Considering we're slowly trying to lean more away from being a NS-centric/specific forum and more of just a general one, the idea of introducing any law that in any sense punishes members more than former citizenship does (let's be honest, not having access to elections period for members is nicer than having full access but being told "Oh, sorry, you can vote...but you can't run) simply because they're not wanting to be on NS just doesn't seem right.

You're giving members the choice to post a specific amount per day to be a lesser citizen that doesn't get the full rights and benefits of a full citizen despite them making the post requirement...it's not something that I imagine most members would enjoy, and I'm pretty sure members would rather just quit at that point if they had no interest in going back on NS in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I can't support that.  It's something that completely goes against Wintreath's code of openness and inclusiveness for all members, new, returning, or currently active.  You're basically saying that regardless of how productive and included you are in Wintreath...if you choose to not play NS or keep a nation active in a game that you don't play anyways, you'll never be allowed to actually be a bigger part of the forums.

And that's something I just can't behind.  I think anyone who is here and makes an effort on Wintreath deserves the chance to run for an office that helps dictate the affairs on Wintreath.  Delegateship? Military-ship? Ambassadorship? Recruiting? Sure, because those are specific positions that affect outside of Wintreath.  But inner-office positions that affect Wintreath specifically?  There shouldn't be a NS requirement tag on those...which is why I fully support Wintermoot's proposal that gives a choice on keeping an active nation or keeping active in the forums.

Wintreath affairs should be dictated by Wintreath members and by those who contribute to Wintreath specifically.  Nationstates should only dictate Nationstates affairs outside of Wintreath.

My proposal was based upon Laurentus's proposal/idea (at least I think it was Laurentus that proposed it). Further they are only actually barred from Elected Positions (so the UH). They can still serve on the OH, still serve in the Riksrad, still serve in basically anywhere else. Although again I've stated this before, to me Wintreath is primarily an NS region and will always be that to me. As such I will always act in that matter. What's the purpose of having a regional government if we aren't?

My proposal was based upon Laurentus's proposal/idea (at least I think it was Laurentus that proposed it). Further they are only actually barred from Elected Positions (so the UH). They can still serve on the OH, still serve in the Riksrad, still serve in basically anywhere else. Although again I've stated this before, to me Wintreath is primarily an NS region and will always be that to me. As such I will always act in that matter. What's the purpose of having a regional government if we aren't?

Always will be to you and always will be as a fact are two different things.  You say primarily it's an NS region, and to me it's become primarily a general chat messageboard with NS elements.  You're one of the only ones around that takes part in military affairs, and that's one of the only actual primary NS elements.  Everything else is primarily Wintreath, and geared towards making our Wintreath messageboard grow and prosper.

If NS died today, we'd still be living.  We still have connections to other messageboards directly, and we can still share Wintreath news and events without the NS medium.

We need to stop treating NS like it's the end-all-be-all deciding factor.  It's cute that you want to continue treating it as such, but if you really want to compromise, then follow Wintermoot's proposal.  He's the one that CREATED Wintreath, and he's totally cool creating a proposal that gives active NS users OR active forum users the right to full citizenship.  If they want to be here, why do their NS statistics matter?  As I said, regardless of our roots, we've become much more of a general messageboard first and a NS region second, and we need to recognize and follow that instead if blindly trying to keep it as something it's clearly not as much of anymore.

Note, I never actually said I would compromise in this area. Personally I believe that my idea is the best one for Wintreath going forward. If NS fails tomorrow I would be in support of destroying our government completely, because it would lack a use (unless we went to something like Cybernations.) and would be idiotic to keep around a system that lacks any real use. However that world is not our own. We are still an NS region, our members still primarily come from NS, until either the majority of our members aren't gotten from NS, NS ceases to exist, or we cease all NS functions and cease all of our standard government functions (read Storting/Legislative Functionality), then you can see me saying we are an NS region.

Why would we have to destroy the government?  Delegateship and the military?  Sure.  But we'd still need mods and a system to keep everything running, and I think the government is still fine for that purpose.  Until we find a different alternative, I see no reason to dissolve the government if NS ceased to be.

Because the government would be unnecessary. We could just swap to a normal system for groups like this on the internet, which is essentially the administration group running it all. (Which, honestly, would make things run a bit smoother IMO however because we are an NS region we concern ourselves with a more structured government).

Again, until an alternative has been suggested aside from a "normal" system, there'd be no reason to change it regardless of what kind of messageboard we decide to be.  We can be a place dedicated to general discussion and not NS and still have a government.  What you see as unnecessary I see as an interesting concept.  Our Cabinet are essentially the "mods" of the forum and, while certain areas would be changed if we broke away from NS, they can still be relevant.  Why would it be a bad thing to have a mod dedicated to games and contests?  Or a mod dedicated to welcoming and teaching new members?  Or a mod that helps in other ways?  We can still keep the cabinet and alter its style a bit.

Likewise, the reason I'm all for keeping the overhusen/underhusen/OA structure regardless of where we choose to go is because even if we choose to break away from NS, we can still keep things democratic.  Members would still get the chance to vote on laws that govern Wintreath and its traditions, and they'd still have a voice in how things develop.

A "normal" system takes that away.  The moderators generally become just a police squad, and the administrator normally becomes an isolated type that feels they're above everyone else.

That's not Wintreath.  If we're going to be an open and inclusive place for people to be, there's no reason to dissolve anything that allows that should we choose to unaffiliate ourselves with NS.

I personally think the day will come when we're as invested in some other game as we are with NS, if not more so. The only reason we haven't already done so is because we just haven't found another multiplayer game that most of the community plays, but someday there will be a spark that catches on. It may also be that we become a destination unto ourselves, if we develop our own in-region game or political sim...either way, I think the day is coming where NS will be just one part of what we do here.

But something I've also noticed is that a lot of prominent players are retiring and leaving NS, particularly in gameplay...there's just not a lot that holds people's interest in it anymore, so I'm not surprised that people also want to leave NS here too...the good difference though is that people are looking to stay here in Wintreath, whereas in other regions people are leaving both NS and the region. I think that alone is a good sign that we're not synonymous with NS, and I think that independence should be encouraged. Realistically, we're not doing anything of great importance in NS anyways, so I don't see the point of requiring people to be involved in it if they're active here.

So now that the Community Citizenship Amendment Act has been passed, @Laurentus , @Evelynx , and @Seroim should all be eligible for citizenship again since they all made over 5 posts in November, right?

Their Citizenships lapsed before the Act passed, so they would need to reapply...much in the same way that people have to reapply if they restore their NS nation.

Ah, makes sense.