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1) This Act shall be cited as Revocation of Govindia’s Citizenship.

Call for Govindia’s removal from Wintreath
        The Storting recognizes that Citizen Govindia has contributed to the region by actively taking part in elections and showing interest in our political system.

        Unfortunately, throughout his time in Wintreath, Govindia has persistently disturbed Citizens of Wintreath both in and out of the forums. This is evident in his constant harassment of Citizens in threads, PMs and the IRC chat for what he claims to be “disrespectful” to him. Despite polite requests to cease such behaviour, Govindia continues to bait others into starting arguments and flame anyone who disagrees with him despite the fact that he is often the one who starts the conflict by calling out people who he deems to be verbally attacking him when they are not. In this regard, the Storting acknowledges that Govindia has been previously banned from the IRC chat several times for such behaviour. 

        The Storting strongly believes that such behaviour, if remained unchecked, is detrimental to the community as a whole and compromises the very values that Wintreath stands for. It is also recognized that Govindia has been given a considerable number of chances to learn from past mistakes and that he has either willingly or unwilling failed to do so. As a result, the Storting hereby revokes the citizenship of Govindia.

Peers may vote Aye, Nay, or may Abstain from voting.

Nay.

Wintreath is a region that, as stated by Wintermoot several times over, is based at least in part on the idea of second chances. Govindia, for all of his issues, has been a long time member of the region and probably the main benefactor of our 'second chance' policy. Whilst I can readily admit my activity over summer was minimal to the point of non-existent, I feel that newer members here seem to have taken personal offence to Govindia's attitudes and rather than attempt to deal with them have elected to shift the problem elsewhere.

This is not okay.

Whilst you may feel Gov has used his autism as an excuse, I have to admit sympathy for him - it's easy to view someone who raises illness as a reason for bad behaviour as someone looking for a way to avoid blame, but with autism it really is harder to communicate. Add to that the issues with chat-based communication online and I see no reason to assume Gov is telling anything other than the truth when he says he's direct because of how his brain is wired.

But to go beyond this, the Act itself when raised in the Underhusen received no support from its original author. I agree that Pengu did raise valid concerns in his post, but that he should have put far more thought into the Act before proposing it in the first place. If you are not 100% certain, especially on an issue such as revocation, YOU DO NOT PROPOSE THE ACT. This is basic legislation common sense. The entirety of this process has smacked of haste and ill-consideration, more than evidenced by the fact that Pengu himself changed his mind. Reon was quite right in that he should have mentioned this in the discussion rather than waiting for the vote to throw his fellow UH members for six by voting against. It doesn't speak well of inter-member communication.

Revocation of citizenship is, in truth, a necessary power for the Storting to hold for a lot of reasons. Those reasons do not include personal dislike of someone you find difficult to handle. We are all part of a diverse and active community - if you struggle with one particular member, you merely move past them and make friends with others, limiting your contact with said member like a mature and responsible adult would in the workplace.

So no, this Act should not pass. I would be very disappointed if it does.


EDIT: I understand many have grievances with Govindia and that he can be hard to deal with. I, personally, find Gov an engaging conversationalist and an excellent method of getting undue aggression out of my system when we have arguments and debates. It is possible to find someone irritating yet like them immensely. Adult life is one long story of dealing with irritating people day in, day out. Just because we're online and can throw insults without worrying about things getting back to us personally doesn't mean we should act any differently in this context.

Abstain.

As I stated before, should the Act pass and I have to hear an appeal, I don't want any vote I make here to give the appearance that my decision on an appeal has already been made one way or another. For the record, my criteria for judging an appeal as Monarch would be different than voting on the Act here in the Storting.

That being said, I think the revocation system worked well...yes, it exposed flaws that should be addressed, but the complaint was laid out, Govindia had a fair chance to speak on his behalf, members of the community had a chance to weigh in, there was debate, and ultimately a decision is being rendered, and regardless of what that decision is I think it will be the product of a lot of reflection and consideration. In my opinion, this process has been much better and more comprehensive than the three previous attempts to revoke Govindia's citizenship or bring action against him.

That being said, I have to point out that out of all the Citizens we have and have had, all four attempts to revoke a Citizenship in the region have been targeted at one person: Gov. Taken with his history in other regions, and similar behaviour that has led to being banned in those regions, I don't agree with my colleague's assessment that the issue is people not wanting to deal with Gov and his attitudes. At some point, it has to stop being everyone else's fault and start being his fault, and that point starts when he continues behaviour that he has been asked not to do. Even in a community as open and accepting as ours, and even with someone I think is as good-natured as Gov...there's only so much people can take, and it's not a community responsibility to accept behaviour that, intended to be or not, is harassment.

One of the reasons I feel this has been more comprehensive is because he has received the direct input and advice that he says he needs to better himself and integrate better with the community. It's advice that I hope that he takes to heart, because impartiality aside, I think he's going to dodge a bullet on this one, and should he go back to the same behaviour that started this mess I don't think people are going to be as forgiving the fifth time around. The fact that this Act managed to get into the Overhusen even after the author withdrew support speaks to how serious this situation really is. It would not be in Gov's best interests for him to dismiss these events as being by people that just don't like him, as he typically has done in the past.

That would be my two cents on the topic.

Due to the nature of this proposed Act, I'm posting again in the hopes of eliciting a swift response from the remaining members of the Overhusen - I don't think it's right we drag this out for Govindia any long than strictly necessary.

Thanks Weissreich. I'm going to post my response on this act tomorrow.

Nay.

I don't believe that a revocation of citizenship has become necessary...yet. I don't think that this proposal was unfounded, but we don't yet need to take such drastic measures. This proposal has served to highlight flaws in the system, ones which I hope to see this session of the Storting correct. 

Several concerns have been raised that need to be addressed.  There are issues and conflicts that need resolving, and some behavior needs to change; that much is clear. There needs to be a system established for a middle ground. Obviously, a slap on the wrist isn't cutting it anymore, but I see no reason to go as far as a revocation of citizenship. However, in the event that this issue persists, and a new revocation proposal is put forward, it will likely receive my full support.  There comes a time when a line must be drawn.  But we have not reached that point yet.

I am glad that this proposal was put forward, and I am equally glad that support for it has faded, even from its own author.  I hope that we can all learn from the discussion and thoughts that this proposal triggered, and I hope that Govindia can learn from the suggestions and opinions given during the discussion of this proposal.

While action needs to be taken, this is not it.  I hope that my other Peers agree.

Present/Abstain.

I'm one of the chat ops; I've seen the bullshit that Gov starts or escalates, here and in other channels, and am aware of quite a bit that has occurred in other regions that is definitely ban worthy, let alone a mere revokal of citizenship.


I am an Administrator in a region that has administratively banned him (Osiris), have been involved discussions regarding his current ban there, and as such am biased; I cannot vote in good conscience on this.

Nay

This is a very difficult issue to vote on. I know Govindia has a tendency not to listen to what is being asked of him, being overly persistent to the point of deep annoyance and using multiple means to get his point across until it has been hammered home well and truly, not to mention always thinking the problems belong to other people instead of himself. It is these issues that have caused problems in previous regions, and it is these issues that have caused this act to get as far as it has (and the many acts Wintermoot has mentioned to get pushed into existence).

Whatever the outcome of this act, I say this directly to Govindia. You need to learn to listen to what other people are saying (or read and pay attention to it, more precisely); you need to learn to be patient, to not be overly persistent and to know when to stop and drop it; and above all else, you need to learn to consider the impact that your actions have on other people. If you don't learn this, there will be another incident and your name will be brought up against the Storting yet again.

I'm personally unsure at this time whether Govindia has the capability to learn and change, given the repeated incidents throughout NationStates, but I also think that if any place in NationStates can teach him these things, it's Wintreath. I also do not feel this is the right path to go should Govindia fail in his charge again; it has been said that the court system should be used for the serious stuff, and I feel such actions warrant their use. I feel Govindia is lucky that this hasn't passed, and he's earned yet another chance to prove himself within this region.

Given that there are 2 abstentions and 3 nays, this act FAILS in the Overhusen.