Wintreath Regional Community

A Link to the Past - Archives => The Registry of Things Past - Historic Archive => Frosthold Castle - Wintreath Government => Topic started by: Laurentus on January 22, 2018, 05:19:22 PM

Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 22, 2018, 05:19:22 PM
The whole point of revoking Govindia's citizenship was to send a message that his harassment would no longer be tolerated, and yet he's still doing it. Far from considering to let him rejoin the community as a citizen, I am asking the Underhusen to declare him as Persona non Grata. I believe this should be done in the best interests of the community, as I have recently become aware that he's displaying the exact same behaviour that led to him getting banned from the IRC on the Discord, again.
Summermoot incident
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey there
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
How’s it going?
Govindia-01/07/2018
Hello @Wintermoot
 
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Should be catching up on stuff...instead I'm trying new games that've sit on my machine for awhile
How about you?
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Eh, a bit bored, RP is currently slow, so meh.
Govindia-01/07/2018
How are you doing @Wintermoot ? I'm doing paperwork
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
I became a moderator in it, though, so that’s good
thechurchofsatan-01/07/2018
Awww! The state boxing commission stopped the fight. I wanted to see that d-bag get hurt...
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome that you're a mod now...but yeah, I guess things are slow in general with people getting back to life
AFter the holidays
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ?
How are you doing?
pokes Wintermoot
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Yeah, and I’m slowly learning how to do stuff, like moderate the website
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Is this a different RP than the one you were banned on awhike back, or did they let you back in?
Govindia-01/07/2018
coughs
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Same one, was let in, the dude banned me because he was deceived by the owner
Govindia-01/07/2018
HEY @Wintermoot how are you doing?
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
All good now between me and the dude who banned me, we’re now good friends, even.
Joseph Stalin™-01/07/2018
#FreeProvincialAmerica
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome! So everything turned out well 
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot someone asked how you are doing? Don't be rude dude >_>
Joseph Stalin™-01/07/2018
free me
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Yeah, it turned out excellently. It’s a great RP now that that dickhead left.
Govindia-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg , help me out here please.
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot goes your job going?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome ^-^ Any pointers for RPs here, now that you're an expert? 
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Lmao, tell me what ya wanna know, and I’ll tell ya :P
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku It'd be going better if I wasn't playing Mad Games Tycoon right now 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ah
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Well, I don't know what I wanna know...I just want great successful RPs. I want great successful everything here 
Govindia-01/07/2018
WINTERMOOT
WHAT THE HELL DUDE
WOULD YOU PLEASE LEARN TO RESPOND MAN, GEEZ.
>_>
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
I don’t think I’ve ever played Mad Games Tycoon
Or even heard of it
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
It's one of those games where you run a game design studio...there's been a lot of them
Not sure how I feel about this one yet
Chanku-01/07/2018
Ah
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
Oh hey guys
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey Gatt
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Game Dev Tycoon is what comes to mine there Mooty
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
Do I have a forum thread for y’all
http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=4930.0
Multiplayer Games of Wintreath
Multiplayer Games of Wintreath
 
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I've played Game Dev Tycoon...don't think I really liked it
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
What up Mootles?
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot anything you are looking forward too?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Not much, just recovering from this week  How about you?
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot can you please stop being passive aggressive and be courteous here when someone's trying to be polite to you?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku Three day weekend next week...looking forward to that. Maybe four if I can get my ass going and do some work this weekend
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
What’s your new job Mooty?
Govindia-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg did you not see my DM ?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Same job I've always had...programmer/data guy
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot new job?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
And region work on the side...I get paid almost $9/month for that 
@Chanku same job, there's just an opportunity to do work this weekend...then I could take Friday off without taking leave in compensation...
Chanku-01/07/2018
Ah
Do ittt
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ok can someone please message me? This childish passive aggresive behaviour is getting stupid and annoying
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I also have to read a book before Tuesday, but it's dreadful v_v
Govindia-01/07/2018
All I simply asked was how @Wintermoot was doing and he's rudely and childishly ignoring me for no logical reason.
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ah. What book? Also thanks for not being passive aggressive with me and talking to me.
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
As long as it’s not non-fiction it shouldn’t be as dreadful
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku "Redesigning America's Community Colleges"...it's about making college programs easier to understand and navigate for students, along with providing enough support services. And you're welcome. 
Lukas Bondevik-01/07/2018
Hi
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Lukas Bondevik hey
Lukas Bondevik-01/07/2018
 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot should probably do some programming work
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also you should totally live stream any programming sessions you do @Wintermoot
I would watch
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku Aww, that's sweet. ^-^ O
I just recently got unlimited internet without a cap, so that's something I can actually do now
Chanku-01/07/2018
Do eit
It would be fun
You could live stream your work on Wintreath or w/e
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I'll keep that in mind next time I do programming work on Wintreath ^-^
Govindia-01/07/2018
hello????
waves
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Oh hey Gov
Govindia-01/07/2018
What the fuck @Wintermoot
like seriously.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Is something wrong?
Govindia-01/07/2018
Cut the passive aggressive rubbish.
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I saw a Norway waving. My life is complete
Govindia-01/07/2018
You have no right to lecture me on behaviour when you know I was around and you didn't have the decency to respond back to me.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
No clue what you're talking about, this is the first I've seen of you today
Govindia-01/07/2018
I went under a different name, just as a joke and you apparently overreacted with passive aggressive butthurt.
so stop lying.
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Hey Moot, maybe ya could help me learn a bit of coding if ya don’t mind
Govindia-01/07/2018
Also you know who I was, so cut your bullshit. The profile pic was a fucking giveaway
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
It’ll be my job in like 3 months
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Huh, weird, I don't feel butthurt at all
shrugs
Govindia-01/07/2018
So seriously @Wintermoot , what gives? You knew it was me, why didn't you say anything?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg I'd be happy to help where I can 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg I could also help with programming as well
Govindia-01/07/2018
I simply asked you how you were doing
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Yeah, Chanku's pretty great at programming too
Chanku-01/07/2018
IRC layout doesn't show profile pictures
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Just depends on what languages/stuff you want to know
Chanku-01/07/2018
I think Wintermoot uses that
Mathyland-01/07/2018
I’d like to learn some programming too
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ok, we're seriously going to try this shit again @Wintermoot, without your passive aggressive trolling.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Though I’m not sure how that would really work
Chanku-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg @Mathyland well I can help depending on what you want
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Sounds like we need a programming class in the region 
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot, hello?
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I can agree to that Moot
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Oh hey Gov <-I already said that
Govindia-01/07/2018
No, you missed this part
Mathyland-01/07/2018
There’s that Wintreath academy thing
Chanku-01/07/2018
I had a programming class when we tried the university thing
Mathyland-01/07/2018
That was trashed awhile ago
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
We had the Wintreath academy at one time, but it didn't go anywhere =[
Archived, not trashed 
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I actually want to learn XML code
Govindia-01/07/2018
Summermoot - Today at 4:10 PM How are you doing @Wintermoot ? I'm doing paperwork
Chanku-01/07/2018
XML is not code
It is a markup language.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Govindia I don’t think Wintermoot responded to your name at all
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
For CiV modding Chanku
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Yeah, XML is a way to store data
Govindia-01/07/2018
Summermoot - Today at 4:11 PM @Wintermoot ? How are you doing? pokes Wintermoot
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Just because he didn’t respond doesn’t mean he was butthurt about your name change
I’m just pointing that out(edited)
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot in case you could not realise for some reason, I was Summermoot
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
There's a varient of html that uses xml formatting called xhtml, but it's more a 2000s thing and that idea was replaced with html5
Govindia-01/07/2018
I was asking, under that name, how you were doing @Wintermoot
Chanku-01/07/2018
I blame the W3C
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Guess I didn't recognize you, Gov xD
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also gov. No one has any obligation to respond to you
Just saying
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot, seriously, stop being an ass. I was simply being courteous and asking how you were doing.
So please let's try this again, with proper decency this time.
Switching back nicknames
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
So what language do you guys want to learn? I can do things like web programming and sql
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot see above.
Chanku-01/07/2018
I can do server and game development stuff
And scripting
Mathyland-01/07/2018
I know some html, JavaScript, and sql
Chanku-01/07/2018
So python 3, C, Bash, SQL
Basic HTML
Govindia-01/07/2018
This is Gov @Wintermoot. Once again, for the fourth time, I ask you: How are you doing?
Mathyland-01/07/2018
But not very in-depth about any of them
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
There's nothing courteous about changing your name to try to get a rise out of people.
Govindia-01/07/2018
I wasn't trying to get a rise out of you
it was a joke.
I changed my name to Sciencyland for @Mathyland and he didn't seem to mind, he thought it was funny.
he didn't be passive aggressive as you were doing @Wintermoot
it was a joke, a simple harmless joke, stop being offended over a non issue.
Chanku-01/07/2018
But yeah if anyone wants some resources or to be taught I am willing to help
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey, how's that Wintreath scraper you made going? Doing anything with it?
Govindia-01/07/2018
so @Wintermoot, please can you answer my question: How are you doing?
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot i presume you are talking to mathyland.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Govindia All that Wintermoot did was not respond. I know you claim you have trouble with social cues and stuff, but he’s told you he didn’t mind the name change.
So please drop the subject
Govindia-01/07/2018
Then @Mathyland he should be mature like an adult and learn to respond with courtesy when someone asks how he is doing
he's exacerbating the issue by being passive aggressive and rude.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
No he’s not
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot thanks again for talking to me and being kind and courteous
Govindia-01/07/2018
yes he is. He is being rude, hypocritical, and discourteous
I asked him politely how he is doing. He should have responded politely in kind, as he was to everyone else here.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Gov, we’re talking about something else right now
Govindia-01/07/2018
He was being passive aggressive and rude
And I'm talking about him being courteous and polite when I was trying to do so to him. I'm sorry he got offended over a joke that wasn't an issue worth being offended over.
You weren't offended for your name change.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Neither was Wintermoot
Chanku-01/07/2018
Gov you are literally the one one making this an issue
Govindia-01/07/2018
Then he should have been capable of responding when I asked him how he was doing
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Wtf did I walk into?
Govindia-01/07/2018
I'm sorry he doesn't understand the concept of polite behaviour
Chanku-01/07/2018
Gov bitching about Wintermoot not talking to him
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot you said something about a Wintreath scraper?
I’m not sure what you were talking about or to whom
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Mathyland Wintreath skyscraper?
Govindia-01/07/2018
He has no right to lecture me about how to behave when he can't show even any courtesy when I was being polite to him.
@Mushi's Jasmine Dragon @Wintermoot apparently got upset that I changed my name as a joke, and refused to answer me when I politely asked him how he was doing
and then lied and pretended he didn't know I was not there.
just to be a dick
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Well, a quick read in the backlog reveals... Nada
Govindia-01/07/2018
and then is victim blaming on himself
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Dude
You pinged him when he was RIGHT THERE multiple times
That's pretty excessive
Govindia-01/07/2018
I simply asked him how he was doing and he still has yet to politely and properly answer me in a courteous manner as he did everyone else.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Back
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
He isn't obligated to respond to you
And like, life happens too
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ignoring someone passively - as his is usual fashion - while lecturing me on behaviour - was excessive and rude.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Mathyland Chanku made a script that pulls info from Wintreath pages
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
I disappear and reappear at random due to rl things
Chanku-01/07/2018
Well made/is making

Laurentus#0466
wintreath
summermoot
LOAD MORE MESSAGES
Govindia-01/07/2018
so @Wintermoot : HOW ARE YOU DOING?
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Dude
Chill
The only one being aggressive here is you
Govindia-01/07/2018
I will chill when he shows me a bit of courtesy please. He was around when I asked him politely the first time, and deliberately ignored me
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
If someone doesn't respond, then oh well
Move on
Govindia-01/07/2018
so yes I have a right to be offended for his deliberate disrespect
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Don't make a big deal of it
It gappens
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Gov, I think you’re misunderstanding what Wintermoot’s intentions were. He didn’t even say anything. You’re not being courteous or polite by dragging this on
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
*happens
It's not necessarily a sign of disrespect(edited)
 
1
Govindia-01/07/2018
That's the point @Mathyland he was being rude. He knew I was there, he didn't want to say anything, he still hasn't.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Not necessarily
Govindia-01/07/2018
it is actually, and he knows it. He never admits when he's wrong, but is quick to blame me always instead.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
You’re quick to blame him
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Look, from the timestamps, he was talking to someone else when said hello
And focused on responding to that person
Govindia-01/07/2018
and he saw what I was asking him. As he's a quick typer, he can also have easily responded to me like he did everyone else.
and he still has that ability now to politely respond back to me.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
I know I tend to miss other convos when I'm focused on a different one
Govindia-01/07/2018
except he didn't miss mine, as he pointed out.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Govindia, please quit harassing me and causing drama.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And I'm not slow at the typing either
Govindia-01/07/2018
You were the one causing drama @Wintermoot. All I simply asked you was how you were doing. STop falsely accusing me when you are to blame in this instance.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Gov Mountain out of molehill
Govindia-01/07/2018
You could have responded, but you're making false accusations
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
You're the one who is continuing to being this up Ie, the one making this drama
Govindia-01/07/2018
So you are the one now harassing me with that shit. Learn to be courteous to EVERYONE at all times.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
It's not that big a deal
Govindia-01/07/2018
It is when someone deliberately disrespects someone when all they ask is how they are doing
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
If you'd just let it go to begin with, there would be no drama right now
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Ironically, Moot didn’t say anything, and that seems to be the issue
Kinda funny imo
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
That you aren't letting it go is the issue at hand
Like seriously
Govindia-01/07/2018
If he learned to respond equally and respectfully as he did everyone else, there would be no drama. WIntermoot exacerbated this issue.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
This is what I drop into chat to find
Govindia-01/07/2018
You apparently don't understand the concept of honour.
If someone asks someone else how they are doing, they should respond back as a sign of courtesy.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And I scroll up pretty far to backlog the source
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot mind stepping in and restoring order
Govindia-01/07/2018
not deliberately and disrespectfully ignore them.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Govindia, this is my final warning. Drop the harassment and drama.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And it's just one person not saying hello
That's it
This drama is disproportionate
Mathyland-01/07/2018
And he didn’t even recognize you at the time, as he said
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Chill, Gov Like, seriously, chill
It's not that big a deal
Stop making it so
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Mathyland can I speak to you in private please
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
And don't go dragging other people into this either, that's part of what got you banned from IRC>
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Not respondong =/= lack of respect
People miss things
Making a big deal of it just leads to animosity
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Mushi's Jasmine Dragon I sent you a DM
Echoes of a three year-old discussion, had recently
[12:59 AM] Wintermoot: I think it's pretty unfortunate that nobody in the RP area ultimately rose to the occassion to take the position...hopefully Gerrick can fill the vacancy or manage things himself. The good news is that we have good people for three positions, and we can definitely focus on improving those areas :smile:
[1:03 AM] Govindia: hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[1:03 AM] Wintermoot: Hi
[1:04 AM] Govindia: so there wasn't really drama earlier regarding me, @Wintermoot , I was trying to have civil movie discussion with Johanna and tatte, and Emil and Chanku were being dicks.
[1:04 AM] Govindia: Emil being the drama loving weeaboo otaku
[1:05 AM] Wintermoot: How can be no drama if he's a 'drama loving weeaboo'?
[1:05 AM] Govindia: i wasn't causing drama, other people were.
[1:05 AM] Govindia: Just because I am speaking with people does not mean there is drama caused by me.   Ya'll need to chill the fuck out with that shit
[1:06 AM] Govindia: Contrary to what you may believe in, I do enjoy sometimes discussion with the Nordic peoples of Wintreath
[1:06 AM] Govindia: compared to other people here
[1:08 AM] Wintermoot: Well, @tatte seems to be in your corner, at least
[1:09 AM] Govindia: I saw, he has a point.   There's not really much room for me to work with if people aren't going to adapt and give me a chance to improve myself if people are going to be a bunch of dicks in assholes
[1:09 AM] Govindia: something something something dicks pussies assholes speech Team America
[1:09 AM] Wintermoot: You've spent the last four years telling people they need to adapt to you because you're different, because you were raised a different way, or whatever...communities don't change to adapt to individuals
[1:10 AM] Govindia: communities adapt for people who have social issues, who are LGBTQ, who have social disabilities, who are autistic etc.
[1:10 AM] Attero: u finally have an avatar @Wintermoot
[1:10 AM] Govindia: while helping them become a better part of that community
[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: Those are portions of a community, not individuals
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it works both ways, buddy.
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it's not one sided.  A person can only do so much to try to adapt to a community, but a community should also do their part in return, you included @Wintermoot
[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: @Attero Yes, suprisingly enough Yuno sent me some suggestions and this was one of them. Surprising since we don't really talk. :stuck_out_tongue:
[1:12 AM] Govindia: Please keep in mind what I said, seriously this time, @Wintermoot . Not "noted" and then throw it out the fucking window
[1:13 AM] Govindia: would you please, @Wintermoot  ?
[1:15 AM] Doc: I'm willing to agree that you're right, to an extent. But those times a community adapts are to a thing a person has no control over, like, as you said, differing sexualities or not being neurotypical.
The question is, that the case for you, or is it a case of being unwilling to change a facet of your personality that it seems to me that a lot of people find troubling?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: neurotypical?  huh?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: your second question I don't fully understand, @Doc
[1:16 AM] Govindia: Also why do you sound vaguely familiar.   Have we spoken on IRC / forums before?
[1:19 AM] Doc: returning to the election thing, however; @Wintermoot - it's certainly possible that given the rough weather a lot of parts have had that people might have simply been unable to (totally not pointing at myself as an example, even though I didn't run in the first place). Can't...quite give Ashton that consideration, since he has posted on the RMB that I can see - but maybe giving an extension until the ostensible time of the electoral period might be merited
[1:20 AM] Wintermoot: The fact of the matter is, over the years you've upset, frustrated, and pissed off a lot of people in this community, including me, and that's something you're going to have to overcome.
[1:21 AM] Doc: and neurotypical is falling within the perceived general norms of brain or social function - so someone with autism would not be neurotypical, and if there's a better way to put that i can't think of it right now
[1:23 AM] Doc: as for the second question, essentially its saying - do you have some disability that the community clearly should have some sort of obligation to acknowledge and adapt to (even if such issues may be more or less manageable over the internet - e.g. tourette's syndrome may not be a factor that people need to adapt to, since it's a verbal tic, not a typed one), or are you just refusing to change behavior people find troubling because it seems like a lot of effort?
[1:23 AM] Doc: and - no, not in those cases. here, a couple of times over some things
[1:25 AM] Wintermoot: @Doc, I don't think the weather was an issue in their cases...the fact of the matter is, the election schedule was published two weeks ago and there was plenty of time to make a campaign, which was as simple as answering a few questions.
[1:25 AM] Govindia: @Wintermoot, my point remains.  It is a new year, and it is pointless to continue to harbour a grudge to me, just as you want me to get over things with other people assuredly.   That's why I asked you to please seriously keep in mind what I said.    I realised I have upset you and others, and I am willing to make amends, but you and others need to give me the opportunity to do so, and that does include an adaptation of attitudes.    It's not just me that has shit to work on.  It's a two way street - it's you all as well.  Some moreso than others.
 
@Doc , I believe, from what others have noticed, and from my interactions with others, my form of autism, if it is Aspergers, or some blend of autism and ADHD, could be a disability, particularly with how I process things and interact with people directly, that is, moreso hard-wiring than merely a, what would you say, a change to the programming code, if you will
[1:26 AM] Doc: yeaaaaaah...i just feel some sort of need to defend them because ashton and aragonn would be good picks and that's why i didn't run against them
[1:26 AM] Wintermoot: Ultimately one of the purposes of the election was to restore meritocracy to the Cabinet, and I can't in good conscience feel we're doing that if we make allowances for people who didn't take the time and effort to do one thing.
[1:26 AM] Doc: well i might suggest getting that shit diagnosed and then getting help with managing it, because i can sit here and diagnose people with cancer all day and it won't mean they've actually got it
[1:27 AM] Govindia: i would have loved to be an RP Thane had I been a citizen, but I don't think I have the time right now and I'm just starting to get my financial shit in order.
[1:27 AM] Wintermoot: I agree they would be good picks, but they have to be motivated and be willing and able to put in the time
[1:27 AM] Govindia: @Doc , I have to go through the state for that.   My insurance does not let me diagnose it with their specialists as an adult, they only do that with kids.
[1:28 AM] Govindia: and to get a diagnosis from the state requires 50+ pages of paperwork, and an interview, and something else :confused:
[1:28 AM] Doc: i mean i don't wanna be shady or anything, but people make allowances generally to meet people halfway, not pick them up and sprint across the finish line with them
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and yes, all I'm asking here is people to meet me halfway on my shit.   I have not seen that happen.      Only half-attempts.
[1:29 AM] Doc: i don't really have an answer for that then. but there's only so far most people are willing to reach out, and from what i've seen it seems that people have reached out pretty dang far and gotten burned for their trouble. once bitten, twice shy, all that shit
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and mind you I have gone out of my way to be supportive of other people when they were down.
[1:29 AM] Doc: @Wintermoot yeah fair. dangit i shoulda run
[1:29 AM] Govindia: I went out of my way to get Nox a Comic Con Exclusive plushy to help when she was really depressed.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I offered to help someone buy their meds, someone who still accused me of bigotry becauise of my  affiliation.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I donated at least 100 to the region.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: If you're interested, you could always contact Gerrick.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: What? lol
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: You donated $10 to the region
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot: http://wintreath.com/donate/
[1:31 AM] Doc: look, i get that you feel you've made the effort to reach out. maybe you genuinely have. but thus far from what i've seen, i've seen a lot of unprovoked hostility towards Chanku and Tatte
[1:31 AM] Govindia: @Doc , not many people reached out well.    Like I said, they tried, but they didn't do a full attempt.
[1:31 AM] Govindia: I could have sworn I donated more than 10
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot: See? That's the shit that pisses me off...you exaggerate or downplay things you've said or done to make yourself look good
[1:32 AM] Doc: so, shit, if you want people to say 'new year, clean slate' - maybe lead by example and others will follow
[1:32 AM] Govindia: tatte not so much, Chanku yes, because Chanku has been an asshole to me to the point that as a base human, he thinks I'm beneath any form of basic decency when he promised in writing to the region he will respect everyone
[1:32 AM] Govindia: and then he cherry picks who he shows basic courtesy too.  That arrogance and snootiness angers me.
[1:33 AM] Govindia: especially a betrayal of a promise.   I take people's word as their bond
[1:33 AM] Govindia: so if they say they will do something, I expect them to do it, just as it is expected of me by others.
[1:33 AM] Doc: chanku was also, up until very recently, not an adult. generally speaking, those same allowances you spoke of are made for adolescents. that's sort of the tradeoff you implicitly make when you do a thing where a large proportion of the people involved are pretty young, like NS
[1:34 AM] Govindia: @Wintermoot  I apologise I wasn't trying to exaggerate, but I thought I honestly donated more than 10
[1:34 AM] Wintermoot: I keep very meticulous donation records...the only four people to donate more than $100 are North, HannahB, Evelynx, and Sachem
[1:34 AM] Govindia: @Doc  Hugsim is younger than Chanku when I first met them both, and Hugsim has never been an asshole to me.  He knows how to respect people as human beings
[1:34 AM] Govindia: so age isnot an excuse
[1:35 AM] Govindia: when I see people who were younger than CHanku and more mature
[1:35 AM] Doc: from what he's told me, though, you consistently belittled him for his age, rather than giving him the modicum of respect members of a community generally provide each other. so it seems to cut both ways here
[1:35 AM] Doc: and it absolutely is
[1:35 AM] Doc: sure, there's occasions in which we see that someone is 'mature for his age' - but the key element is 'for his age'
[1:35 AM] Wintermoot: In fairness, Chanku has really matured over the last year, but you two have this rivalry and you both inflame it
[1:35 AM] Govindia: Even when Chanku saw me here, he didn't change two years later.  He pretty much attacked me for my presence here, attacked Wintermoot, and got in a feud with tatte over it.
[1:35 AM] Doc: relative maturity or immaturity are not grounds by which a judge decides to try a minor as an adult, for example
[1:36 AM] Govindia: I call bullshit on maturity.  If he really matured, he would have been nicer to me when he saw me back in the channel.
[1:36 AM] Doc: pause.
[1:36 AM] Doc: are you legitimately telling me that after you've seen someone you had a strong dislike for once upon a time you'd just say 'eh, let bygones be bygones' and let it go?
[1:37 AM] Govindia: I have tried to be reasonable with him, but he just keeps on shitting on me to the point that he's a dick.  With his behaviour, it makes tatte look like a decent guy, and tatte even admits he's an asshole.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: Yes, if he really got the fuck over himself and was civil with me.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: because why the fuck would I harbour a grudge over him?
[1:37 AM] Wintermoot: Doesn't sound like you're being civil with him...even here you're calling him a dick and an asshole
[1:38 AM] Govindia: it's not like he accused me of being a child molestor supporter because I'm a Republican
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or made jokes about my dead mother
[1:38 AM] Doc: well, if that's the case, lead by example. be civil. you catch more flies with honey and shit.
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or attacked my family
[1:38 AM] Doc: i've certainly not seen that. admittedly i haven't exactly looked too hard, but that doesn't seem to sound like him from what i know of him
[1:38 AM] Govindia: I'm fucking direct, I have no filter.  I call it as I see it.  If it looks like a dick, walks like a dick, fucks in the ass like a dick, it's a dick.
[1:39 AM] Doc: well probably amend that
[1:39 AM] Wintermoot: Maybe he's direct and has no filter too lol
[1:39 AM] Doc: because i've been filtering a great deal in this conversation and i could be a lot more blunt
[1:39 AM] Doc: but i don't, because of, like you said, the respect that community members should provide each other as a baseline.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: I've tried to mend fences with him, but he wants to make excuses for not showing respect to me.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for not showing basic civility to other people, citizen or no citizen.
[1:40 AM] Doc: and, what, having no filter constitutes basic civility?
[1:40 AM] Govindia: and he has never been punished for his behaviour as I have.
[1:40 AM] Govindia: You can still be civil and be a pottymouth
[1:40 AM] Wintermoot: I'm not aware of any actionable behaviour on his part recently. He was tempbanned several times on IRC for thigns he said towards you
[1:41 AM] Doc: there is a significant difference between someone (realistically, me) using 'fuck' as an interstital word, and actively insulting someone
[1:41 AM] Govindia: he had lesser bans than I had, and  he didn't get his citizenship stripped?
[1:41 AM] Wintermoot: You got your Citizenship stripped for a number of reasons
[1:42 AM] Doc: As I recall from my admittedly brief overview of the...process, he also wasn't indicted for harassment of multiple people.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: And I tried to respond to those things, but my lengthy response was ignored.
[1:42 AM] Wintermoot: It wasn't ignored, it just paled on comparison with your actions
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one wanted to hear what I said, despite me being allowed time to write it.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one addressed anything I said in it.
[1:43 AM] Doc: As I further recall from that, multiple extensions were given to you, suggesting that people were willing to give you a fair shake. If nobody gave a shit, they'd just say 'eat a dick time's up'.
Since we're doing 'no filter'.
[1:43 AM] Govindia: perhaps they were being nice, but did they actually take time to read what I said?   To understand what I wrote?
[1:44 AM] Doc: shit, i dunno, like i said i skimmed it
[1:44 AM] Govindia: their responses, did not seem to indicate it.  They were still focused ontheir emotions towards me, none of which were positive.
[1:44 AM] Govindia: "skimmed it".   Thanks @Doc  for proving my point
[1:44 AM] Wintermoot: If I recall, many members of the Storting either responded to or mentioned your post in their response
[1:44 AM] Doc: i probably shouldn't read it any deeper, since it would likely be prejudicial, since all the people involved have, to my mind, been pretty fair about things
[1:44 AM] Govindia: I don't know what they said in the STorting, I'm not sure if that area was viewable to me when it happened.
[1:45 AM] Doc: and i didn't say i skimmed your post in particular - I said I skimmed the whole topic
[1:45 AM] Govindia: Maybe some were fair, some were definitely not impartial.
[1:45 AM] Wintermoot: It's viewable to Citizens and non-Citizens
[1:46 AM] Doc: i don't mean about your trial in particular, because, again, skimmed it, but the people i'm aware of who were involved have been, if not unimpeachable, then certainly unimnectarineable, in their conduct as i've seen it
[1:46 AM] Doc: i will pause now to go feel smug about my shitty wordplay for a minute
[1:47 AM] Govindia: unimnectarineable?   huh?
[1:47 AM] Wintermoot: chuckles
[1:47 AM] Govindia: is that even a word?
[1:47 AM] Doc: peach. nectarine. come on
[1:47 AM] Doc: WORK WITH ME
[1:47 AM] Govindia: oh
[1:47 AM] Govindia: lol
[1:47 AM] Govindia: i see now
[1:48 AM] Govindia: yeah this subtlety thing here I don't understand  as part of my whole direct nature thing
[1:48 AM] Doc: it's not subtlety though it's literally just shitty wordplay
[1:48 AM] Govindia: i didn't pick up on it at first
[1:48 AM] Govindia: also, yeah, I'm direct, always.  I struggle with tact
[1:49 AM] Govindia: like i said guys, I am willing to make amends, but people need to meet me halfway and work with me.   It's a two way street.
[1:49 AM] Govindia: Please, can you at least keep in mind what I have explained here, @Wintermoot ?
[1:53 AM] Doc: i mean, make that plea all you want, man. i'm just saying that if you make clear your intention to meet people halfway, by getting to that halfway point first (or, who knows, the 60% marker even), you're a lot more likely to get people to think 'huh, perhaps this is a genuine change that i should encourage' instead of 'how suspicious should i be'
[1:54 AM] Wintermoot: We'll see...I haven't seen much in the way of actual change
[1:54 AM] Govindia: again, i've had civil conversations with some people, others tried to stir the pot, which you apparent'y didn't realise.
[1:55 AM] Govindia: and hell tatte seems to stick up for me, which I appreciate, and was surprised.  Before he gave zero fucks
[1:55 AM] Wintermoot: What I realize is that you still default to blaming other people for anyting involving you
[1:56 AM] Govindia: Not everything involving me is for me to get blame for. That's something you need to work on.   Holding other people accountable and not scapegoating me as the cause just because I was in the conversation.
[1:56 AM] Govindia: "Oh he was talking about something with others, and people got upset?  It must have been Gov who started it"
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: But that's the thing, you think everything against you is unfair...you really don't feel you've done any wrong.
[1:57 AM] Govindia: not "Oh Chanku and  Emil  were trying to troll me and even after tatte told them to not be asses they still did shit."
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: You even just pretty much said your revocation of Citizenship was unfair
[1:57 AM] Govindia: where did I just say that?
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: When you said Chanku didn't have his Citizenship revoked
[1:58 AM] Wintermoot: And then when you said nobody considered your post
[2:00 AM] Govindia: in other regions, chanku's actions would have gotten his citizenship lost, and I feel that his treatment towards me, when it came to it, was lenient in terms of how he was dealt with
[2:00 AM] Govindia: and I don't know how much people actually took what I said seriously
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: The problem is, you were just as bad as he was...you were doing it to each other.
[2:01 AM] Govindia: I still have mixed emotions about the revocation
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You're not blameless in your ongoing feud with Chanku
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You've both been punished before for your actions towards each other
[2:02 AM] Govindia: i never stated iwas, i stated I made attempts to directly make peace with him.
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: However, your revocation had nothing to do with Chanku
[2:02 AM] Govindia: and it was rejected
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: And Chanku hadn't pestered and harassed multiple members of the community
[2:07 AM] Govindia: Chanku did troll and harass me multiple times
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: And he was punished for it
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: There's not an equivalency between your actions and his actions
[2:08 AM] Govindia: all I saw was you  removed him from family, and banned him for a few hours where you deliberately kept me banned for longer despite my ban length being the same time as he was, and the excuse you had was you were "busy"
[2:08 AM] Wintermoot: I saw the chat logs that led to your probation and ban from IRC, and I know what it was like when I banned you from Civ games...your actions were much, much worse
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Emotionally abusing someone != someone saying 'fuck you' a hundred times
[2:09 AM] Govindia: emoltional abuse?
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Like I said, I read the chat logs
[2:11 AM] Govindia: Being direct with someone  is not emotionally abusive
[2:11 AM] Govindia: not everyone in there knows apparently how to be direct with someone when they have an issue
[2:12 AM] Govindia: this is basic conflict resolution 101 that you get taught about in school
[2:12 AM] Govindia: if you have a problem with someone, be assertive and talk to them about it in a mature manner, and talk that shit out to find a peaceful resolotuion
[2:12 AM] Govindia: don't be passive aggressive about it
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: shrugs
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: I just realized this is a conversation right out of three years ago
[2:18 AM] Wintermoot: I'm honestly tired of hearing about how people need to adapt to you being 'direct', after three years it reads like an excuse.
[2:21 AM] Wintermoot: I allowed you on this Discord server because I was going through a lot of shit at the time and I was feeling mercifcul...I hoped that you had changed your behaviour after two years, but it's becoming clear now that not only have you not changed, you still believe that there was nothing wrong with the behaviour that led to getting banned from IRC or your Citizenship revoked to start with.
[2:21 AM] Govindia: it isn't an excuse
[2:21 AM] Govindia: I never said I didn't regret my actions.
[2:22 AM] Govindia: Don't put words in my mouth, please.
[2:22 AM] Wintermoot: And if we're being 'direct', I'm tired of having to deal with you here and deal with the shit that comes with the region that 'harbors Govindia'. I've put up with both for far too long.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: It's not a lot to ask for when it comes to asking people to be direct.
I have said I am willing to work on my end.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: but I am asking people to be realistic too, it is atwo way street.   Tatte pointed it out when he spoke to you
[2:23 AM] Wintermoot: So if you feel you're treated unfairly here, then I'm sorry, but I think you've been treated very fairly and even graciously. If you're not happy with things here, you're free to go to another region.
[2:24 AM] Govindia: You had just said you would keep in mind what I was saying.
[2:25 AM] Govindia: I said I was willing to make amends and work on what I need to do on my end.  I would like people to cooperate and work with me as well please.
[2:25 AM] Wintermoot: I said, 'we'll see'. That was contingent on seeing actual change from you.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: it's not going to happen instantly.   i also have shit to deal with too.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: you're not the only one that has stuff going on outside of NS.
[2:27 AM] Wintermoot: From where I stand, you have a long, long way to go. I'm not optimistic
[2:28 AM] Wintermoot: Especially in light of this discussion.
[2:28 AM] Govindia: Like I said, it's a two way street, but Iwill do what I can to keep my side in order.
[2:29 AM] Wintermoot: I certainly hope so
[2:31 AM] Govindia: and same with you
[2:36 AM] thechurchofsatan: So I decided against the desktop I had my eye on and bought a gaming laptop the other day. I can resume my former internet presence at long last!
[2:36 AM] Govindia: wb @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew YEar
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Even better, Allods Online is still around after all these years and I can play where I left off!!!!!!!
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew Year @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Happy New Years Gov. :smiley:

    [2:39 AM] thechurchofsatan: I started playing runescape yesterday again too. Wish I could have got into my old account but it might be best that I start over anyways. So much of it has changed since I last played.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 08:11:56 PM
I'm certainly not going to be against it, it's been nearly a year and yet he has learned nothing from it. It's unfortunately, really, I did have some small sliver of hope he would have improved in some way.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 08:23:48 PM
I would like to post a second-post with an update from the Underhusen, a bill is now within the Underhusen halls, which is located here (http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=4963.msg113354;boardseen#new)
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Crushita on January 22, 2018, 08:24:47 PM
With the bill being proposed, I highly encourage all citizens to give their opinions on the matter. This is not an act that should be taken lightly, and all citizens should have the opportunity to give their opinion on the matter.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Doc on January 22, 2018, 09:49:58 PM
While I don't especially want him gone, neither do I especially want him around, and at the least this is a clean resolution to his status.
As in my thread on the subject, though, I think it would be wise for the UH to take a closer look at Revocation, and see if that and PNG status should be tied together, or else some path to probation is made available (or even both, if its deemed possible that some people may be toxic, but other people need a legal slap upside the head as step one of redemption) so that we don't have people in these grey areas of being non-citizens who still have free run of both a large part of the forums and the Discord.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 10:05:49 PM
While I don't especially want him gone, neither do I especially want him around, and at the least this is a clean resolution to his status.
As in my thread on the subject, though, I think it would be wise for the UH to take a closer look at Revocation, and see if that and PNG status should be tied together, or else some path to probation is made available (or even both, if its deemed possible that some people may be toxic, but other people need a legal slap upside the head as step one of redemption) so that we don't have people in these grey areas of being non-citizens who still have free run of both a large part of the forums and the Discord.
Just a heads up, all non-citizens have access to the same areas of the forums and Discord. Literally every single one of them.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: taulover on January 22, 2018, 10:10:21 PM
While I don't especially want him gone, neither do I especially want him around, and at the least this is a clean resolution to his status.
As in my thread on the subject, though, I think it would be wise for the UH to take a closer look at Revocation, and see if that and PNG status should be tied together, or else some path to probation is made available (or even both, if its deemed possible that some people may be toxic, but other people need a legal slap upside the head as step one of redemption) so that we don't have people in these grey areas of being non-citizens who still have free run of both a large part of the forums and the Discord.
Just a heads up, all non-citizens have access to the same areas of the forums and Discord. Literally every single one of them.
And this is done intentionally, as a reflection of Wintreath's openness, especially compared to other regions and communities.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Doc on January 22, 2018, 10:11:15 PM
I suppose what I mean then is 'maybe there should be a different 'Revoked Citizen' mask for them so that such people are even more restricted than non-citizens', because if people went to all the trouble to get a revocation done in the first place, the community clearly doesn't want the person around.
Unless the suggestion is that the only real concern is said individuals being able to run for office, which strikes me as absurd.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 10:12:30 PM
Such a mask and the application of such would be up to administration and is not an area where the Storting has authority.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: taulover on January 22, 2018, 10:13:16 PM
I suppose what I mean then is 'maybe there should be a different 'Revoked Citizen' mask for them so that such people are even more restricted than non-citizens', because if people went to all the trouble to get a revocation done in the first place, the community clearly doesn't want the person around.
Unless the suggestion is that the only real concern is said individuals being able to run for office, which strikes me as absurd.
As I believe I've said earlier today, IIRC the citizenship revocation was intended as merely a warning and small light punishment, not much more.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Sapphiron on January 22, 2018, 10:32:56 PM
Did something happen because really, any context or evidence would help at this point ... is this a preemptive strike to eliminate the possibility of Govindia regaining his citizenship or did Govindia commit something horrendous again to warrant a PNG? I am not sure what to think of this.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 10:48:57 PM
Did something happen because really, any context or evidence would help at this point ... is this a preemptive strike to eliminate the possibility of Govindia regaining his citizenship or did Govindia commit something horrendous again to warrant a PNG? I am not sure what to think of this.

Govindia's Behavior has yet to change, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that he won't change and refuses to do so. I believe @Laruentus can explain more as to why he decided to move for this himself. However I would also like to point out that Govindia has actually began to make comments stating others (primarily myself) should have their citizenship revoked so that they can feel how he feels.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 10:49:27 PM
@Laurentus sorry
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Crushita on January 22, 2018, 11:05:57 PM
As the person who felt that this request was warranted enough to have a bill proposed to the Underhusen with haste, I should give my opinion on the matter.

I personally feel rather then any one incident that has triggered this, its been the sheer lack of change in his behavior since the revocation was brought down. Nothing has changed about him, he shows all of the behaviors that brought the revocation on him in the first place. He is still extraordinarily unpleasant to deal with in all respects, shows little to no respect for other people and is a detriment to the regional community as long as he is around. We have given him chance after chance and plenty of time to deal with his problems and show a better side and yet he has not. The revocation was supposed to be a wake up call, yet its done nothing. Any other region would have long seen him run out with all of the transgressions he's committed, its time we ought to as well.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Imaginative Kane on January 22, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
Did something happen because really, any context or evidence would help at this point ... is this a preemptive strike to eliminate the possibility of Govindia regaining his citizenship or did Govindia commit something horrendous again to warrant a PNG? I am not sure what to think of this.

Govindia's Behavior has yet to change, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that he won't change and refuses to do so. I believe @Laruentus can explain more as to why he decided to move for this himself. However I would also like to point out that Govindia has actually began to make comments stating others (primarily myself) should have their citizenship revoked so that they can feel how he feels.
Where have comments like that been made, may I ask?  I have been seeing the discord chat and have not seen anything like that.  The "drama" that I have seen so far has just been in my opinion blown out of proportion.  This is just based off of what I have seen I will emphasize.  However I do know about the drama so I can not speak for the history.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 22, 2018, 11:17:45 PM
With regards to me:
Last Friday
Quote
[5:00 PM] Govindia: @tatte maybe the Storting should revoke Chanku's citizenship
[5:01 PM] tatte: I don't believe in such negative actions, we need more positivity, not hostility, grudges etc.
[5:03 PM] tatte: there was nothing like this in the Soviet Russia
[5:03 PM] Noxicosis: .friday
[5:03 PM] Zaphyr: Friday! Friday! Gotta get down on Friday! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
5:04 PM] tatte: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g
[5:04 PM] tatte: Well this is actually good, but still
[5:12 PM] Noxicosis: FISHES
[5:12 PM] tatte: fried fishes!
[5:13 PM] Noxicosis: Tasty
[5:19 PM] tatte: yum
[5:21 PM] Govindia: @tatte I'm just saying that so he knows what it's like
[5:22 PM] tatte: are we still talking about foot fetish?
[5:22 PM] tatte: if not, I'm lost
[5:23 PM] Govindia: no
[5:23 PM] tatte: shame
[5:23 PM] Govindia:  Screenshot_20180119-142321.png
[5:23 PM] Govindia: regarding citizenship

On the Third of this month
Quote
[1:39 AM] Govindia: I've tried to mend fences with him [Chanku], but he wants to make excuses for not showing respect to me.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for not showing basic civility to other people, citizen or no citizen.
[1:40 AM] Doc: and, what, having no filter constitutes basic civility?
[1:40 AM] Govindia: and he has never been punished for his behaviour as I have.
[1:40 AM] Govindia: You can still be civil and be a pottymouth
[1:40 AM] Wintermoot: I'm not aware of any actionable behaviour on his part recently. He was tempbanned several times on IRC for thigns he said towards you
[1:41 AM] Doc: there is a significant difference between someone (realistically, me) using 'fuck' as an interstital word, and actively insulting someone
[1:41 AM] Govindia: he had lesser bans than I had, and  he didn't get his citizenship stripped?
[1:41 AM] Wintermoot: You got your Citizenship stripped for a number of reasons

Note that I was the subject of debate in that section and the [Chanku] was my own addition. These are from #wintreath on the Discord
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Arenado on January 22, 2018, 11:19:56 PM
If you think this is the best route. But I want no part in this.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Imaginative Kane on January 22, 2018, 11:31:15 PM
With regards to me:
Last Friday
Quote
[5:00 PM] Govindia: @tatte maybe the Storting should revoke Chanku's citizenship
[5:01 PM] tatte: I don't believe in such negative actions, we need more positivity, not hostility, grudges etc.
[5:03 PM] tatte: there was nothing like this in the Soviet Russia
[5:03 PM] Noxicosis: .friday
[5:03 PM] Zaphyr: Friday! Friday! Gotta get down on Friday! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
5:04 PM] tatte: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzC4hFK5P3g
[5:04 PM] tatte: Well this is actually good, but still
[5:12 PM] Noxicosis: FISHES
[5:12 PM] tatte: fried fishes!
[5:13 PM] Noxicosis: Tasty
[5:19 PM] tatte: yum
[5:21 PM] Govindia: @tatte I'm just saying that so he knows what it's like
[5:22 PM] tatte: are we still talking about foot fetish?
[5:22 PM] tatte: if not, I'm lost
[5:23 PM] Govindia: no
[5:23 PM] tatte: shame
[5:23 PM] Govindia:  Screenshot_20180119-142321.png
[5:23 PM] Govindia: regarding citizenship

On the Third of this month
Quote
[1:39 AM] Govindia: I've tried to mend fences with him [Chanku], but he wants to make excuses for not showing respect to me.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for not showing basic civility to other people, citizen or no citizen.
[1:40 AM] Doc: and, what, having no filter constitutes basic civility?
[1:40 AM] Govindia: and he has never been punished for his behaviour as I have.
[1:40 AM] Govindia: You can still be civil and be a pottymouth
[1:40 AM] Wintermoot: I'm not aware of any actionable behaviour on his part recently. He was tempbanned several times on IRC for thigns he said towards you
[1:41 AM] Doc: there is a significant difference between someone (realistically, me) using 'fuck' as an interstital word, and actively insulting someone
[1:41 AM] Govindia: he had lesser bans than I had, and  he didn't get his citizenship stripped?
[1:41 AM] Wintermoot: You got your Citizenship stripped for a number of reasons

Note that I was the subject of debate in that section and the [Chanku] was my own addition. These are from #wintreath on the Discord
How did I not notice that first one.  I was paying attention at that time.  Although that does resemble several other Discord conversations.
I do remember that second conversation that you are talking about.  I now have seen something about Gov talking about other revocations.


If you think this is the best route. But I want no part in this.
I stand with you on this North.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 23, 2018, 10:38:25 PM
If this is not harassment, then I don't know what is. Clearly, he has not learned and improved his behaviour, even after close to two years of not being a citizen. Those among you who've been here awhile will see A LOT of echoes to the Pengu and HannahB incidents. Can we finally do what is necessary and end this?
Summermoot incident
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey there
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
How’s it going?
Govindia-01/07/2018
Hello @Wintermoot
 
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Should be catching up on stuff...instead I'm trying new games that've sit on my machine for awhile
How about you?
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Eh, a bit bored, RP is currently slow, so meh.
Govindia-01/07/2018
How are you doing @Wintermoot ? I'm doing paperwork
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
I became a moderator in it, though, so that’s good
thechurchofsatan-01/07/2018
Awww! The state boxing commission stopped the fight. I wanted to see that d-bag get hurt...
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome that you're a mod now...but yeah, I guess things are slow in general with people getting back to life
AFter the holidays
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ?
How are you doing?
pokes Wintermoot
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Yeah, and I’m slowly learning how to do stuff, like moderate the website
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Is this a different RP than the one you were banned on awhike back, or did they let you back in?
Govindia-01/07/2018
coughs
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Same one, was let in, the dude banned me because he was deceived by the owner
Govindia-01/07/2018
HEY @Wintermoot how are you doing?
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
All good now between me and the dude who banned me, we’re now good friends, even.
Joseph Stalin™-01/07/2018
#FreeProvincialAmerica
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome! So everything turned out well 
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot someone asked how you are doing? Don't be rude dude >_>
Joseph Stalin™-01/07/2018
free me
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Yeah, it turned out excellently. It’s a great RP now that that dickhead left.
Govindia-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg , help me out here please.
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot goes your job going?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
That's awesome ^-^ Any pointers for RPs here, now that you're an expert? 
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Lmao, tell me what ya wanna know, and I’ll tell ya :P
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku It'd be going better if I wasn't playing Mad Games Tycoon right now 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ah
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Well, I don't know what I wanna know...I just want great successful RPs. I want great successful everything here 
Govindia-01/07/2018
WINTERMOOT
WHAT THE HELL DUDE
WOULD YOU PLEASE LEARN TO RESPOND MAN, GEEZ.
>_>
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
I don’t think I’ve ever played Mad Games Tycoon
Or even heard of it
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
It's one of those games where you run a game design studio...there's been a lot of them
Not sure how I feel about this one yet
Chanku-01/07/2018
Ah
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
Oh hey guys
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey Gatt
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Game Dev Tycoon is what comes to mine there Mooty
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
Do I have a forum thread for y’all
http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=4930.0
Multiplayer Games of Wintreath
Multiplayer Games of Wintreath
 
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I've played Game Dev Tycoon...don't think I really liked it
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
What up Mootles?
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot anything you are looking forward too?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Not much, just recovering from this week  How about you?
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot can you please stop being passive aggressive and be courteous here when someone's trying to be polite to you?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku Three day weekend next week...looking forward to that. Maybe four if I can get my ass going and do some work this weekend
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
What’s your new job Mooty?
Govindia-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg did you not see my DM ?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Same job I've always had...programmer/data guy
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot new job?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
And region work on the side...I get paid almost $9/month for that 
@Chanku same job, there's just an opportunity to do work this weekend...then I could take Friday off without taking leave in compensation...
Chanku-01/07/2018
Ah
Do ittt
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ok can someone please message me? This childish passive aggresive behaviour is getting stupid and annoying
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I also have to read a book before Tuesday, but it's dreadful v_v
Govindia-01/07/2018
All I simply asked was how @Wintermoot was doing and he's rudely and childishly ignoring me for no logical reason.
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot ah. What book? Also thanks for not being passive aggressive with me and talking to me.
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
As long as it’s not non-fiction it shouldn’t be as dreadful
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku "Redesigning America's Community Colleges"...it's about making college programs easier to understand and navigate for students, along with providing enough support services. And you're welcome. 
Lukas Bondevik-01/07/2018
Hi
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Lukas Bondevik hey
Lukas Bondevik-01/07/2018
 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot should probably do some programming work
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also you should totally live stream any programming sessions you do @Wintermoot
I would watch
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Chanku Aww, that's sweet. ^-^ O
I just recently got unlimited internet without a cap, so that's something I can actually do now
Chanku-01/07/2018
Do eit
It would be fun
You could live stream your work on Wintreath or w/e
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
I'll keep that in mind next time I do programming work on Wintreath ^-^
Govindia-01/07/2018
hello????
waves
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Oh hey Gov
Govindia-01/07/2018
What the fuck @Wintermoot
like seriously.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Is something wrong?
Govindia-01/07/2018
Cut the passive aggressive rubbish.
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I saw a Norway waving. My life is complete
Govindia-01/07/2018
You have no right to lecture me on behaviour when you know I was around and you didn't have the decency to respond back to me.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
No clue what you're talking about, this is the first I've seen of you today
Govindia-01/07/2018
I went under a different name, just as a joke and you apparently overreacted with passive aggressive butthurt.
so stop lying.
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Hey Moot, maybe ya could help me learn a bit of coding if ya don’t mind
Govindia-01/07/2018
Also you know who I was, so cut your bullshit. The profile pic was a fucking giveaway
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
It’ll be my job in like 3 months
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Huh, weird, I don't feel butthurt at all
shrugs
Govindia-01/07/2018
So seriously @Wintermoot , what gives? You knew it was me, why didn't you say anything?
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg I'd be happy to help where I can 
Chanku-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg I could also help with programming as well
Govindia-01/07/2018
I simply asked you how you were doing
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Yeah, Chanku's pretty great at programming too
Chanku-01/07/2018
IRC layout doesn't show profile pictures
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Just depends on what languages/stuff you want to know
Chanku-01/07/2018
I think Wintermoot uses that
Mathyland-01/07/2018
I’d like to learn some programming too
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ok, we're seriously going to try this shit again @Wintermoot, without your passive aggressive trolling.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Though I’m not sure how that would really work
Chanku-01/07/2018
@AJ’BLarg @Mathyland well I can help depending on what you want
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Sounds like we need a programming class in the region 
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot, hello?
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I can agree to that Moot
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Oh hey Gov <-I already said that
Govindia-01/07/2018
No, you missed this part
Mathyland-01/07/2018
There’s that Wintreath academy thing
Chanku-01/07/2018
I had a programming class when we tried the university thing
Mathyland-01/07/2018
That was trashed awhile ago
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
We had the Wintreath academy at one time, but it didn't go anywhere =[
Archived, not trashed 
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
I actually want to learn XML code
Govindia-01/07/2018
Summermoot - Today at 4:10 PM How are you doing @Wintermoot ? I'm doing paperwork
Chanku-01/07/2018
XML is not code
It is a markup language.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Govindia I don’t think Wintermoot responded to your name at all
Gattoartico(ToG)-01/07/2018
For CiV modding Chanku
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Yeah, XML is a way to store data
Govindia-01/07/2018
Summermoot - Today at 4:11 PM @Wintermoot ? How are you doing? pokes Wintermoot
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Just because he didn’t respond doesn’t mean he was butthurt about your name change
I’m just pointing that out(edited)
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot in case you could not realise for some reason, I was Summermoot
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
There's a varient of html that uses xml formatting called xhtml, but it's more a 2000s thing and that idea was replaced with html5
Govindia-01/07/2018
I was asking, under that name, how you were doing @Wintermoot
Chanku-01/07/2018
I blame the W3C
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Guess I didn't recognize you, Gov xD
Chanku-01/07/2018
Also gov. No one has any obligation to respond to you
Just saying
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot, seriously, stop being an ass. I was simply being courteous and asking how you were doing.
So please let's try this again, with proper decency this time.
Switching back nicknames
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
So what language do you guys want to learn? I can do things like web programming and sql
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot see above.
Chanku-01/07/2018
I can do server and game development stuff
And scripting
Mathyland-01/07/2018
I know some html, JavaScript, and sql
Chanku-01/07/2018
So python 3, C, Bash, SQL
Basic HTML
Govindia-01/07/2018
This is Gov @Wintermoot. Once again, for the fourth time, I ask you: How are you doing?
Mathyland-01/07/2018
But not very in-depth about any of them
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
There's nothing courteous about changing your name to try to get a rise out of people.
Govindia-01/07/2018
I wasn't trying to get a rise out of you
it was a joke.
I changed my name to Sciencyland for @Mathyland and he didn't seem to mind, he thought it was funny.
he didn't be passive aggressive as you were doing @Wintermoot
it was a joke, a simple harmless joke, stop being offended over a non issue.
Chanku-01/07/2018
But yeah if anyone wants some resources or to be taught I am willing to help
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Hey, how's that Wintreath scraper you made going? Doing anything with it?
Govindia-01/07/2018
so @Wintermoot, please can you answer my question: How are you doing?
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot i presume you are talking to mathyland.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Govindia All that Wintermoot did was not respond. I know you claim you have trouble with social cues and stuff, but he’s told you he didn’t mind the name change.
So please drop the subject
Govindia-01/07/2018
Then @Mathyland he should be mature like an adult and learn to respond with courtesy when someone asks how he is doing
he's exacerbating the issue by being passive aggressive and rude.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
No he’s not
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot thanks again for talking to me and being kind and courteous
Govindia-01/07/2018
yes he is. He is being rude, hypocritical, and discourteous
I asked him politely how he is doing. He should have responded politely in kind, as he was to everyone else here.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Gov, we’re talking about something else right now
Govindia-01/07/2018
He was being passive aggressive and rude
And I'm talking about him being courteous and polite when I was trying to do so to him. I'm sorry he got offended over a joke that wasn't an issue worth being offended over.
You weren't offended for your name change.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Neither was Wintermoot
Chanku-01/07/2018
Gov you are literally the one one making this an issue
Govindia-01/07/2018
Then he should have been capable of responding when I asked him how he was doing
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Wtf did I walk into?
Govindia-01/07/2018
I'm sorry he doesn't understand the concept of polite behaviour
Chanku-01/07/2018
Gov bitching about Wintermoot not talking to him
Mathyland-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot you said something about a Wintreath scraper?
I’m not sure what you were talking about or to whom
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Mathyland Wintreath skyscraper?
Govindia-01/07/2018
He has no right to lecture me about how to behave when he can't show even any courtesy when I was being polite to him.
@Mushi's Jasmine Dragon @Wintermoot apparently got upset that I changed my name as a joke, and refused to answer me when I politely asked him how he was doing
and then lied and pretended he didn't know I was not there.
just to be a dick
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Well, a quick read in the backlog reveals... Nada
Govindia-01/07/2018
and then is victim blaming on himself
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Dude
You pinged him when he was RIGHT THERE multiple times
That's pretty excessive
Govindia-01/07/2018
I simply asked him how he was doing and he still has yet to politely and properly answer me in a courteous manner as he did everyone else.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Back
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
He isn't obligated to respond to you
And like, life happens too
Govindia-01/07/2018
Ignoring someone passively - as his is usual fashion - while lecturing me on behaviour - was excessive and rude.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
@Mathyland Chanku made a script that pulls info from Wintreath pages
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
I disappear and reappear at random due to rl things
Chanku-01/07/2018
Well made/is making

Laurentus#0466
wintreath
summermoot
LOAD MORE MESSAGES
Govindia-01/07/2018
so @Wintermoot : HOW ARE YOU DOING?
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Dude
Chill
The only one being aggressive here is you
Govindia-01/07/2018
I will chill when he shows me a bit of courtesy please. He was around when I asked him politely the first time, and deliberately ignored me
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
If someone doesn't respond, then oh well
Move on
Govindia-01/07/2018
so yes I have a right to be offended for his deliberate disrespect
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Don't make a big deal of it
It gappens
Mathyland-01/07/2018
Gov, I think you’re misunderstanding what Wintermoot’s intentions were. He didn’t even say anything. You’re not being courteous or polite by dragging this on
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
*happens
It's not necessarily a sign of disrespect(edited)
 
1
Govindia-01/07/2018
That's the point @Mathyland he was being rude. He knew I was there, he didn't want to say anything, he still hasn't.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Not necessarily
Govindia-01/07/2018
it is actually, and he knows it. He never admits when he's wrong, but is quick to blame me always instead.
Mathyland-01/07/2018
You’re quick to blame him
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Look, from the timestamps, he was talking to someone else when said hello
And focused on responding to that person
Govindia-01/07/2018
and he saw what I was asking him. As he's a quick typer, he can also have easily responded to me like he did everyone else.
and he still has that ability now to politely respond back to me.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
I know I tend to miss other convos when I'm focused on a different one
Govindia-01/07/2018
except he didn't miss mine, as he pointed out.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Govindia, please quit harassing me and causing drama.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And I'm not slow at the typing either
Govindia-01/07/2018
You were the one causing drama @Wintermoot. All I simply asked you was how you were doing. STop falsely accusing me when you are to blame in this instance.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Gov Mountain out of molehill
Govindia-01/07/2018
You could have responded, but you're making false accusations
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
You're the one who is continuing to being this up Ie, the one making this drama
Govindia-01/07/2018
So you are the one now harassing me with that shit. Learn to be courteous to EVERYONE at all times.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
It's not that big a deal
Govindia-01/07/2018
It is when someone deliberately disrespects someone when all they ask is how they are doing
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
If you'd just let it go to begin with, there would be no drama right now
AJ’BLarg-01/07/2018
Ironically, Moot didn’t say anything, and that seems to be the issue
Kinda funny imo
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
That you aren't letting it go is the issue at hand
Like seriously
Govindia-01/07/2018
If he learned to respond equally and respectfully as he did everyone else, there would be no drama. WIntermoot exacerbated this issue.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
This is what I drop into chat to find
Govindia-01/07/2018
You apparently don't understand the concept of honour.
If someone asks someone else how they are doing, they should respond back as a sign of courtesy.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And I scroll up pretty far to backlog the source
Chanku-01/07/2018
@Wintermoot mind stepping in and restoring order
Govindia-01/07/2018
not deliberately and disrespectfully ignore them.
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
Govindia, this is my final warning. Drop the harassment and drama.
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
And it's just one person not saying hello
That's it
This drama is disproportionate
Mathyland-01/07/2018
And he didn’t even recognize you at the time, as he said
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Chill, Gov Like, seriously, chill
It's not that big a deal
Stop making it so
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Mathyland can I speak to you in private please
Wintermoot-01/07/2018
And don't go dragging other people into this either, that's part of what got you banned from IRC>
Mushi's Jasmine Dragon-01/07/2018
Not respondong =/= lack of respect
People miss things
Making a big deal of it just leads to animosity
Govindia-01/07/2018
@Mushi's Jasmine Dragon I sent you a DM
Also, copy-pasting stuff from Discord is a goddamned nightmare, so I apologise if I've missed some bits here. I've also attached this as a Word doc.

EDIT: Regarding his unwillingness/complete inability to change, there's this discussion. When I read this, there are moments I really feel for him. But it also shows there is no breaking the cycle. We cannot help him, and lord knows, we've tried. Emoticonius and I tried our level best, even after the revocation attempt with Pengu. The more damage he does to us, the more we do in return, until we're all spent. This cannot continue.

Echoes of a three year-old discussion, had recently
[12:59 AM] Wintermoot: I think it's pretty unfortunate that nobody in the RP area ultimately rose to the occassion to take the position...hopefully Gerrick can fill the vacancy or manage things himself. The good news is that we have good people for three positions, and we can definitely focus on improving those areas :smile:
[1:03 AM] Govindia: hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
[1:03 AM] Wintermoot: Hi
[1:04 AM] Govindia: so there wasn't really drama earlier regarding me, @Wintermoot , I was trying to have civil movie discussion with Johanna and tatte, and Emil and Chanku were being dicks.
[1:04 AM] Govindia: Emil being the drama loving weeaboo otaku
[1:05 AM] Wintermoot: How can be no drama if he's a 'drama loving weeaboo'?
[1:05 AM] Govindia: i wasn't causing drama, other people were.
[1:05 AM] Govindia: Just because I am speaking with people does not mean there is drama caused by me.   Ya'll need to chill the fuck out with that shit
[1:06 AM] Govindia: Contrary to what you may believe in, I do enjoy sometimes discussion with the Nordic peoples of Wintreath
[1:06 AM] Govindia: compared to other people here
[1:08 AM] Wintermoot: Well, @tatte seems to be in your corner, at least
[1:09 AM] Govindia: I saw, he has a point.   There's not really much room for me to work with if people aren't going to adapt and give me a chance to improve myself if people are going to be a bunch of dicks in assholes
[1:09 AM] Govindia: something something something dicks pussies assholes speech Team America
[1:09 AM] Wintermoot: You've spent the last four years telling people they need to adapt to you because you're different, because you were raised a different way, or whatever...communities don't change to adapt to individuals
[1:10 AM] Govindia: communities adapt for people who have social issues, who are LGBTQ, who have social disabilities, who are autistic etc.
[1:10 AM] Attero: u finally have an avatar @Wintermoot
[1:10 AM] Govindia: while helping them become a better part of that community
[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: Those are portions of a community, not individuals
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it works both ways, buddy.
[1:11 AM] Govindia: it's not one sided.  A person can only do so much to try to adapt to a community, but a community should also do their part in return, you included @Wintermoot
[1:11 AM] Wintermoot: @Attero Yes, suprisingly enough Yuno sent me some suggestions and this was one of them. Surprising since we don't really talk. :stuck_out_tongue:
[1:12 AM] Govindia: Please keep in mind what I said, seriously this time, @Wintermoot . Not "noted" and then throw it out the fucking window
[1:13 AM] Govindia: would you please, @Wintermoot  ?
[1:15 AM] Doc: I'm willing to agree that you're right, to an extent. But those times a community adapts are to a thing a person has no control over, like, as you said, differing sexualities or not being neurotypical.
The question is, that the case for you, or is it a case of being unwilling to change a facet of your personality that it seems to me that a lot of people find troubling?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: neurotypical?  huh?
[1:16 AM] Govindia: your second question I don't fully understand, @Doc
[1:16 AM] Govindia: Also why do you sound vaguely familiar.   Have we spoken on IRC / forums before?
[1:19 AM] Doc: returning to the election thing, however; @Wintermoot - it's certainly possible that given the rough weather a lot of parts have had that people might have simply been unable to (totally not pointing at myself as an example, even though I didn't run in the first place). Can't...quite give Ashton that consideration, since he has posted on the RMB that I can see - but maybe giving an extension until the ostensible time of the electoral period might be merited
[1:20 AM] Wintermoot: The fact of the matter is, over the years you've upset, frustrated, and pissed off a lot of people in this community, including me, and that's something you're going to have to overcome.
[1:21 AM] Doc: and neurotypical is falling within the perceived general norms of brain or social function - so someone with autism would not be neurotypical, and if there's a better way to put that i can't think of it right now
[1:23 AM] Doc: as for the second question, essentially its saying - do you have some disability that the community clearly should have some sort of obligation to acknowledge and adapt to (even if such issues may be more or less manageable over the internet - e.g. tourette's syndrome may not be a factor that people need to adapt to, since it's a verbal tic, not a typed one), or are you just refusing to change behavior people find troubling because it seems like a lot of effort?
[1:23 AM] Doc: and - no, not in those cases. here, a couple of times over some things
[1:25 AM] Wintermoot: @Doc, I don't think the weather was an issue in their cases...the fact of the matter is, the election schedule was published two weeks ago and there was plenty of time to make a campaign, which was as simple as answering a few questions.
[1:25 AM] Govindia: @Wintermoot, my point remains.  It is a new year, and it is pointless to continue to harbour a grudge to me, just as you want me to get over things with other people assuredly.   That's why I asked you to please seriously keep in mind what I said.    I realised I have upset you and others, and I am willing to make amends, but you and others need to give me the opportunity to do so, and that does include an adaptation of attitudes.    It's not just me that has shit to work on.  It's a two way street - it's you all as well.  Some moreso than others.
 
@Doc , I believe, from what others have noticed, and from my interactions with others, my form of autism, if it is Aspergers, or some blend of autism and ADHD, could be a disability, particularly with how I process things and interact with people directly, that is, moreso hard-wiring than merely a, what would you say, a change to the programming code, if you will
[1:26 AM] Doc: yeaaaaaah...i just feel some sort of need to defend them because ashton and aragonn would be good picks and that's why i didn't run against them
[1:26 AM] Wintermoot: Ultimately one of the purposes of the election was to restore meritocracy to the Cabinet, and I can't in good conscience feel we're doing that if we make allowances for people who didn't take the time and effort to do one thing.
[1:26 AM] Doc: well i might suggest getting that shit diagnosed and then getting help with managing it, because i can sit here and diagnose people with cancer all day and it won't mean they've actually got it
[1:27 AM] Govindia: i would have loved to be an RP Thane had I been a citizen, but I don't think I have the time right now and I'm just starting to get my financial shit in order.
[1:27 AM] Wintermoot: I agree they would be good picks, but they have to be motivated and be willing and able to put in the time
[1:27 AM] Govindia: @Doc , I have to go through the state for that.   My insurance does not let me diagnose it with their specialists as an adult, they only do that with kids.
[1:28 AM] Govindia: and to get a diagnosis from the state requires 50+ pages of paperwork, and an interview, and something else :confused:
[1:28 AM] Doc: i mean i don't wanna be shady or anything, but people make allowances generally to meet people halfway, not pick them up and sprint across the finish line with them
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and yes, all I'm asking here is people to meet me halfway on my shit.   I have not seen that happen.      Only half-attempts.
[1:29 AM] Doc: i don't really have an answer for that then. but there's only so far most people are willing to reach out, and from what i've seen it seems that people have reached out pretty dang far and gotten burned for their trouble. once bitten, twice shy, all that shit
[1:29 AM] Govindia: and mind you I have gone out of my way to be supportive of other people when they were down.
[1:29 AM] Doc: @Wintermoot yeah fair. dangit i shoulda run
[1:29 AM] Govindia: I went out of my way to get Nox a Comic Con Exclusive plushy to help when she was really depressed.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I offered to help someone buy their meds, someone who still accused me of bigotry becauise of my  affiliation.
[1:30 AM] Govindia: I donated at least 100 to the region.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: If you're interested, you could always contact Gerrick.
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: What? lol
[1:30 AM] Wintermoot: You donated $10 to the region
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot: http://wintreath.com/donate/
[1:31 AM] Doc: look, i get that you feel you've made the effort to reach out. maybe you genuinely have. but thus far from what i've seen, i've seen a lot of unprovoked hostility towards Chanku and Tatte
[1:31 AM] Govindia: @Doc , not many people reached out well.    Like I said, they tried, but they didn't do a full attempt.
[1:31 AM] Govindia: I could have sworn I donated more than 10
[1:31 AM] Wintermoot: See? That's the shit that pisses me off...you exaggerate or downplay things you've said or done to make yourself look good
[1:32 AM] Doc: so, shit, if you want people to say 'new year, clean slate' - maybe lead by example and others will follow
[1:32 AM] Govindia: tatte not so much, Chanku yes, because Chanku has been an asshole to me to the point that as a base human, he thinks I'm beneath any form of basic decency when he promised in writing to the region he will respect everyone
[1:32 AM] Govindia: and then he cherry picks who he shows basic courtesy too.  That arrogance and snootiness angers me.
[1:33 AM] Govindia: especially a betrayal of a promise.   I take people's word as their bond
[1:33 AM] Govindia: so if they say they will do something, I expect them to do it, just as it is expected of me by others.
[1:33 AM] Doc: chanku was also, up until very recently, not an adult. generally speaking, those same allowances you spoke of are made for adolescents. that's sort of the tradeoff you implicitly make when you do a thing where a large proportion of the people involved are pretty young, like NS
[1:34 AM] Govindia: @Wintermoot  I apologise I wasn't trying to exaggerate, but I thought I honestly donated more than 10
[1:34 AM] Wintermoot: I keep very meticulous donation records...the only four people to donate more than $100 are North, HannahB, Evelynx, and Sachem
[1:34 AM] Govindia: @Doc  Hugsim is younger than Chanku when I first met them both, and Hugsim has never been an asshole to me.  He knows how to respect people as human beings
[1:34 AM] Govindia: so age isnot an excuse
[1:35 AM] Govindia: when I see people who were younger than CHanku and more mature
[1:35 AM] Doc: from what he's told me, though, you consistently belittled him for his age, rather than giving him the modicum of respect members of a community generally provide each other. so it seems to cut both ways here
[1:35 AM] Doc: and it absolutely is
[1:35 AM] Doc: sure, there's occasions in which we see that someone is 'mature for his age' - but the key element is 'for his age'
[1:35 AM] Wintermoot: In fairness, Chanku has really matured over the last year, but you two have this rivalry and you both inflame it
[1:35 AM] Govindia: Even when Chanku saw me here, he didn't change two years later.  He pretty much attacked me for my presence here, attacked Wintermoot, and got in a feud with tatte over it.
[1:35 AM] Doc: relative maturity or immaturity are not grounds by which a judge decides to try a minor as an adult, for example
[1:36 AM] Govindia: I call bullshit on maturity.  If he really matured, he would have been nicer to me when he saw me back in the channel.
[1:36 AM] Doc: pause.
[1:36 AM] Doc: are you legitimately telling me that after you've seen someone you had a strong dislike for once upon a time you'd just say 'eh, let bygones be bygones' and let it go?
[1:37 AM] Govindia: I have tried to be reasonable with him, but he just keeps on shitting on me to the point that he's a dick.  With his behaviour, it makes tatte look like a decent guy, and tatte even admits he's an asshole.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: Yes, if he really got the fuck over himself and was civil with me.
[1:37 AM] Govindia: because why the fuck would I harbour a grudge over him?
[1:37 AM] Wintermoot: Doesn't sound like you're being civil with him...even here you're calling him a dick and an asshole
[1:38 AM] Govindia: it's not like he accused me of being a child molestor supporter because I'm a Republican
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or made jokes about my dead mother
[1:38 AM] Doc: well, if that's the case, lead by example. be civil. you catch more flies with honey and shit.
[1:38 AM] Govindia: or attacked my family
[1:38 AM] Doc: i've certainly not seen that. admittedly i haven't exactly looked too hard, but that doesn't seem to sound like him from what i know of him
[1:38 AM] Govindia: I'm fucking direct, I have no filter.  I call it as I see it.  If it looks like a dick, walks like a dick, fucks in the ass like a dick, it's a dick.
[1:39 AM] Doc: well probably amend that
[1:39 AM] Wintermoot: Maybe he's direct and has no filter too lol
[1:39 AM] Doc: because i've been filtering a great deal in this conversation and i could be a lot more blunt
[1:39 AM] Doc: but i don't, because of, like you said, the respect that community members should provide each other as a baseline.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: I've tried to mend fences with him, but he wants to make excuses for not showing respect to me.
[1:39 AM] Govindia: and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for not showing basic civility to other people, citizen or no citizen.
[1:40 AM] Doc: and, what, having no filter constitutes basic civility?
[1:40 AM] Govindia: and he has never been punished for his behaviour as I have.
[1:40 AM] Govindia: You can still be civil and be a pottymouth
[1:40 AM] Wintermoot: I'm not aware of any actionable behaviour on his part recently. He was tempbanned several times on IRC for thigns he said towards you
[1:41 AM] Doc: there is a significant difference between someone (realistically, me) using 'fuck' as an interstital word, and actively insulting someone
[1:41 AM] Govindia: he had lesser bans than I had, and  he didn't get his citizenship stripped?
[1:41 AM] Wintermoot: You got your Citizenship stripped for a number of reasons
[1:42 AM] Doc: As I recall from my admittedly brief overview of the...process, he also wasn't indicted for harassment of multiple people.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: And I tried to respond to those things, but my lengthy response was ignored.
[1:42 AM] Wintermoot: It wasn't ignored, it just paled on comparison with your actions
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one wanted to hear what I said, despite me being allowed time to write it.
[1:42 AM] Govindia: no one addressed anything I said in it.
[1:43 AM] Doc: As I further recall from that, multiple extensions were given to you, suggesting that people were willing to give you a fair shake. If nobody gave a shit, they'd just say 'eat a dick time's up'.
Since we're doing 'no filter'.
[1:43 AM] Govindia: perhaps they were being nice, but did they actually take time to read what I said?   To understand what I wrote?
[1:44 AM] Doc: shit, i dunno, like i said i skimmed it
[1:44 AM] Govindia: their responses, did not seem to indicate it.  They were still focused ontheir emotions towards me, none of which were positive.
[1:44 AM] Govindia: "skimmed it".   Thanks @Doc  for proving my point
[1:44 AM] Wintermoot: If I recall, many members of the Storting either responded to or mentioned your post in their response
[1:44 AM] Doc: i probably shouldn't read it any deeper, since it would likely be prejudicial, since all the people involved have, to my mind, been pretty fair about things
[1:44 AM] Govindia: I don't know what they said in the STorting, I'm not sure if that area was viewable to me when it happened.
[1:45 AM] Doc: and i didn't say i skimmed your post in particular - I said I skimmed the whole topic
[1:45 AM] Govindia: Maybe some were fair, some were definitely not impartial.
[1:45 AM] Wintermoot: It's viewable to Citizens and non-Citizens
[1:46 AM] Doc: i don't mean about your trial in particular, because, again, skimmed it, but the people i'm aware of who were involved have been, if not unimpeachable, then certainly unimnectarineable, in their conduct as i've seen it
[1:46 AM] Doc: i will pause now to go feel smug about my shitty wordplay for a minute
[1:47 AM] Govindia: unimnectarineable?   huh?
[1:47 AM] Wintermoot: chuckles
[1:47 AM] Govindia: is that even a word?
[1:47 AM] Doc: peach. nectarine. come on
[1:47 AM] Doc: WORK WITH ME
[1:47 AM] Govindia: oh
[1:47 AM] Govindia: lol
[1:47 AM] Govindia: i see now
[1:48 AM] Govindia: yeah this subtlety thing here I don't understand  as part of my whole direct nature thing
[1:48 AM] Doc: it's not subtlety though it's literally just shitty wordplay
[1:48 AM] Govindia: i didn't pick up on it at first
[1:48 AM] Govindia: also, yeah, I'm direct, always.  I struggle with tact
[1:49 AM] Govindia: like i said guys, I am willing to make amends, but people need to meet me halfway and work with me.   It's a two way street.
[1:49 AM] Govindia: Please, can you at least keep in mind what I have explained here, @Wintermoot ?
[1:53 AM] Doc: i mean, make that plea all you want, man. i'm just saying that if you make clear your intention to meet people halfway, by getting to that halfway point first (or, who knows, the 60% marker even), you're a lot more likely to get people to think 'huh, perhaps this is a genuine change that i should encourage' instead of 'how suspicious should i be'
[1:54 AM] Wintermoot: We'll see...I haven't seen much in the way of actual change
[1:54 AM] Govindia: again, i've had civil conversations with some people, others tried to stir the pot, which you apparent'y didn't realise.
[1:55 AM] Govindia: and hell tatte seems to stick up for me, which I appreciate, and was surprised.  Before he gave zero fucks
[1:55 AM] Wintermoot: What I realize is that you still default to blaming other people for anyting involving you
[1:56 AM] Govindia: Not everything involving me is for me to get blame for. That's something you need to work on.   Holding other people accountable and not scapegoating me as the cause just because I was in the conversation.
[1:56 AM] Govindia: "Oh he was talking about something with others, and people got upset?  It must have been Gov who started it"
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: But that's the thing, you think everything against you is unfair...you really don't feel you've done any wrong.
[1:57 AM] Govindia: not "Oh Chanku and  Emil  were trying to troll me and even after tatte told them to not be asses they still did shit."
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: You even just pretty much said your revocation of Citizenship was unfair
[1:57 AM] Govindia: where did I just say that?
[1:57 AM] Wintermoot: When you said Chanku didn't have his Citizenship revoked
[1:58 AM] Wintermoot: And then when you said nobody considered your post
[2:00 AM] Govindia: in other regions, chanku's actions would have gotten his citizenship lost, and I feel that his treatment towards me, when it came to it, was lenient in terms of how he was dealt with
[2:00 AM] Govindia: and I don't know how much people actually took what I said seriously
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: The problem is, you were just as bad as he was...you were doing it to each other.
[2:01 AM] Govindia: I still have mixed emotions about the revocation
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You're not blameless in your ongoing feud with Chanku
[2:01 AM] Wintermoot: You've both been punished before for your actions towards each other
[2:02 AM] Govindia: i never stated iwas, i stated I made attempts to directly make peace with him.
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: However, your revocation had nothing to do with Chanku
[2:02 AM] Govindia: and it was rejected
[2:02 AM] Wintermoot: And Chanku hadn't pestered and harassed multiple members of the community
[2:07 AM] Govindia: Chanku did troll and harass me multiple times
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: And he was punished for it
[2:07 AM] Wintermoot: There's not an equivalency between your actions and his actions
[2:08 AM] Govindia: all I saw was you  removed him from family, and banned him for a few hours where you deliberately kept me banned for longer despite my ban length being the same time as he was, and the excuse you had was you were "busy"
[2:08 AM] Wintermoot: I saw the chat logs that led to your probation and ban from IRC, and I know what it was like when I banned you from Civ games...your actions were much, much worse
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Emotionally abusing someone != someone saying 'fuck you' a hundred times
[2:09 AM] Govindia: emoltional abuse?
[2:09 AM] Wintermoot: Like I said, I read the chat logs
[2:11 AM] Govindia: Being direct with someone  is not emotionally abusive
[2:11 AM] Govindia: not everyone in there knows apparently how to be direct with someone when they have an issue
[2:12 AM] Govindia: this is basic conflict resolution 101 that you get taught about in school
[2:12 AM] Govindia: if you have a problem with someone, be assertive and talk to them about it in a mature manner, and talk that shit out to find a peaceful resolotuion
[2:12 AM] Govindia: don't be passive aggressive about it
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: shrugs
[2:16 AM] Wintermoot: I just realized this is a conversation right out of three years ago
[2:18 AM] Wintermoot: I'm honestly tired of hearing about how people need to adapt to you being 'direct', after three years it reads like an excuse.
[2:21 AM] Wintermoot: I allowed you on this Discord server because I was going through a lot of shit at the time and I was feeling mercifcul...I hoped that you had changed your behaviour after two years, but it's becoming clear now that not only have you not changed, you still believe that there was nothing wrong with the behaviour that led to getting banned from IRC or your Citizenship revoked to start with.
[2:21 AM] Govindia: it isn't an excuse
[2:21 AM] Govindia: I never said I didn't regret my actions.
[2:22 AM] Govindia: Don't put words in my mouth, please.
[2:22 AM] Wintermoot: And if we're being 'direct', I'm tired of having to deal with you here and deal with the shit that comes with the region that 'harbors Govindia'. I've put up with both for far too long.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: It's not a lot to ask for when it comes to asking people to be direct.
I have said I am willing to work on my end.
[2:23 AM] Govindia: but I am asking people to be realistic too, it is atwo way street.   Tatte pointed it out when he spoke to you
[2:23 AM] Wintermoot: So if you feel you're treated unfairly here, then I'm sorry, but I think you've been treated very fairly and even graciously. If you're not happy with things here, you're free to go to another region.
[2:24 AM] Govindia: You had just said you would keep in mind what I was saying.
[2:25 AM] Govindia: I said I was willing to make amends and work on what I need to do on my end.  I would like people to cooperate and work with me as well please.
[2:25 AM] Wintermoot: I said, 'we'll see'. That was contingent on seeing actual change from you.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: it's not going to happen instantly.   i also have shit to deal with too.
[2:26 AM] Govindia: you're not the only one that has stuff going on outside of NS.
[2:27 AM] Wintermoot: From where I stand, you have a long, long way to go. I'm not optimistic
[2:28 AM] Wintermoot: Especially in light of this discussion.
[2:28 AM] Govindia: Like I said, it's a two way street, but Iwill do what I can to keep my side in order.
[2:29 AM] Wintermoot: I certainly hope so
[2:31 AM] Govindia: and same with you
[2:36 AM] thechurchofsatan: So I decided against the desktop I had my eye on and bought a gaming laptop the other day. I can resume my former internet presence at long last!
[2:36 AM] Govindia: wb @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew YEar
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Even better, Allods Online is still around after all these years and I can play where I left off!!!!!!!
[2:37 AM] Govindia: Happy Mew Year @thechurchofsatan
[2:37 AM] thechurchofsatan: Happy New Years Gov. :smiley:

    [2:39 AM] thechurchofsatan: I started playing runescape yesterday again too. Wish I could have got into my old account but it might be best that I start over anyways. So much of it has changed since I last played.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Emoticonius on January 24, 2018, 01:05:29 AM
As someone that has been around for the last few years and seen the more unacceptable behavior on Gov's part I simply can't stand by and let it continue. I've tried to help him before and despite my best efforts he still refuses to change or hold himself accountable for his actions. Now he keeps doing what got him in trouble all those years ago. I'm taking a stand. I won't tolerate it anymore. This is the last straw. I am of the opinion that after all the chances he's wasted, all of the people he's hurt that it's time we do what should have been done long before I came to Wintreath. So I support the PNG declaration of Govindia.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 24, 2018, 01:13:18 AM
I've edited my previous post to include another discussion.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Wintermoot on January 24, 2018, 08:28:47 AM
October 6, 2017
When Gov showed up on the newly official Discord server, I was in a pretty bad space mentally. My mom had just been diagnosed with cancer, and I was going through all the horrible, scary thoughts that you have when someone that you're so close to is diagnosed with something like that (she's responded wonderfully to treatment, so things have been much better since). I would have been well within my rights to ban Gov the second he appeared on Discord, because of his IRC ban and his status as a non-Citizen, and maybe at any other time I would have, but with everything going on I didn't have the heart to do it...it felt like the right time to show mercy to him.

See, I don't believe Gov is a bad guy...I think that he means well but isn't capable of interacting with others well, and I've always felt that this community was important to him in his own way even though he could no longer be a Citizen of it, so when he showed up with everything going on I just couldn't find it in my heart to banish someone like that, even if he had been a source of drama before.

January 19, 2018
When a discussion turned to the idea of Gov moving over to Dawsinian's region, the feeling that rose within me was hysterical glee...glee that he would be someone else's problem, that somebody who isn't me would be dealing with him, and that someone else would have to carry the burden of being the leader of the region that 'harbors Govindia', and the thought of Gov getting his ass banned thrilled me to no end. It all seemed funny at the time, but the truth of the matter is that I was taunting Gov in a manner that a troll would, and my behaviour was inappropriate for a leader and administrator.

But it made me realize another reality...that for as much as I wanted to be merciful and give people chances, in this case I was no longer capable of doing so. Gov had simply irritated, exasperated, and pissed me off too many times over the years to be able to be fair in matters related to him, and for all my past efforts at being objective to him I can no longer help but let the many negative experiences and dramas surrounding him colour my perceptions of him.

I had been thinking this over ever since, because what do you do about something like that? Do you pass on anything involving him to someone who can be more objective? Is there even any such person around? Would it be appropriate to ask him to leave, or to at least ask him not to talk to me unless it was related to administration? Recognizing that he could no longer get a fair shake here, would it be selfish to ban him, or would I be doing the best thing for everyone involved, including him?

Now
But it seems that I'm not the only one with these feelings, for that discussion and the fear that Gov could become a Citizen again has sparked this effort. And if we're being honest, the cause is the same...that after years of putting up with his behavior, most people here just can't tolerate him anymore. He's been the source of so much drama and irritation and loathing in some cases that there's virtually nobody left who can objectively defend him or give him yet another chance. There's only so much even the most forgiving and compromising community can take until there's no goodwill left...maybe he's finally there.

What more can be done at that point?
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Aethelia on January 24, 2018, 03:57:07 PM
From the logs posted now and years ago, I see this guy gets really bad if ignored for any amount of time. Looks like I got off relatively easy, when he tried to start something with me here on the forum I just directly told him I wasn't going to put up with that and he made some passive-aggressive comment about it to taunt me or something but then actually stopped when it didn't work. Though perhaps on a smaller scale that means I've seen what happens when someone tries to get rid of him, he does just become some else's problem without learning anything or admitting fault, looks like he just moved on to someone else in the Discord when I refused to humor him.

Wasn't sure what to think at first when this came up, I don't especially like him but I should say that he didn't say anything PNG worthy to me at least, even if only because it wasn't allowed to get to that point, as I had planned to just ignore him. But it would be hard not to notice that at best opinions are semi-neutral. Nobody is really defending him so far or saying that he's a great person to have here. Which made me wonder why he even wants to be here, seems to be very unpleasant for everyone involved when he is around. As if he's probably spent his time away just getting banned from other places and only returned here because Wintreath put up with him longer than anyone else has and that's the best he can get. Fits in with these comments about him not changing at all since back then, and him expecting some weird "works both ways" deal that seems pretty one sided in practice.

Knowing all of this now, seems like the question is more about how Wintreath should be handling situations like this than needing much more evidence. Though perhaps that is exactly what was concluded already, given that in this subforum this started with the other topic with making general rules even though it apparently wasn't much of a secret who prompted that to come up.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 24, 2018, 04:06:43 PM
The reason this community is so much more open, is exactly because shit has to get this drastic before we take action. And it is literally one or two people who cause this type of drama. So why not remove said individuals, especially when they've been given countless opportunities to change and improve their behaviour?
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Doc on January 24, 2018, 04:24:46 PM
I'd argue the reverse - the fact that things have to get this drastic before we take serious, concerted action is a consequence of the community being this open. And, I mean, in some ways that's a good thing, but it raises the recurring question of 'should communities be tolerant of intolerance'. Which is a hard question to answer, but, I think, one we're going to need to seriously discuss at the end of this whole affair.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 24, 2018, 04:46:38 PM
I mean, our political debates, while certainly intense (and, ahem, sometimes somewhat personal) have never led to calls by the community for certain people to get banned - except with Gov and Chanku. And Chanku more so for being a bit of an ass (and knowing it) than because of anything like harassment. But clearly, harassment should not be tolerated, and I'm amazed the incidents on Discord were not appropriately disciplined.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Dawsinian on January 24, 2018, 05:37:25 PM
Everyone knows Gov and I have had our problems, so I'm not going to bore you with details. Suffice to say, between the time I left (early 2015) and the time I came back (late 2017), nothing has changed. If anything, it seems to have gotten worse; so I support this effort and will lend whatever assistance I can.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: tatte on January 24, 2018, 06:37:24 PM
-- and I'm amazed the incidents on Discord were not appropriately disciplined.
Our Discord is largely a playground, I agree it could definitely use more active moderation.

The second log you provided refers an earlier situation, a discussion me, Johanna, and Govindia were having that was intentionally and malevolently harassed. It's also a good example of the existence of unprovoked hostility parts of the community are acting towards him. Would I not be an asshole, I'd dig up logs about such cases, but it's at least something I'll be keeping in mind when the UH votes on the matter.

I don't have to disagree with anything that has been said about him, but I'm not surprised he struggles to thrive against the impossible odds. At this point PnG seems like the best solution not only for the community, but for him as well. Feel free to quote me on that, but since this has been made an issue of the UH instead of the administration, I'll at least question if jumping to PnG without proof of properly adjusted preceding interventions is the right solution.

I'm not aware of any disciplinary actions against him or any kerfuffle he has caused on the forums. If he hasn't changed, but our reaction to him has - for the worse, it's not my place to punish him further. If the issue is our hardly moderated Discord, is that not where it should also be solved?

Looks like I got off relatively easy, when he tried to start something with me here on the forum I just directly told him I wasn't going to put up with that and he made some passive-aggressive comment about it to taunt me or something but then actually stopped when it didn't work. Though perhaps on a smaller scale that means I've seen what happens when someone tries to get rid of him, he does just become some else's problem without learning anything or admitting fault, looks like he just moved on to someone else in the Discord when I refused to humor him.

Wasn't sure what to think at first when this came up, I don't especially like him but I should say that he didn't say anything PNG worthy to me at least, even if only because it wasn't allowed to get to that point, as I had planned to just ignore him.
Could we have a context or sources for your interactions? Currently this sounds like you had already decided to shun him from the get-go due to his stigma, instead of seeing for yourself how justified it is.

To demand that someone submits to negative prejudice and outright hostility under the disguise of "you need to change" isn't a "yet another chance". I'm not advocating for another chance, but I do ask for honesty.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 24, 2018, 06:57:34 PM
You mean clear evidence of harassment here on the forum recently, or ever?

Also, it would be a lot clearer to everyone of what you're referring to if you showed the incident through logs. I doubt anyone could call you an asshole. For the record, I've seen a bit of the discussion, and while it's clear you were being trolled/flamed, which should definitely result in some sort of action being taken, I do also see everyone else's point when it comes to the discussion that spawned from it later on. The stigma against him obviously doesn't do him any favours, but he manages to piss off and harass even those who were kind and fair to him.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Emoticonius on January 24, 2018, 07:08:34 PM
You've been around Wintreath (and Gov) far longer than most people in this region tatte. With everything you've seen him do over the years, all of the problems that he himself created and made worse over the years do you really think specificity is required for his PnG declaration? We've all seen what he's capable of. We've all seen how bad he makes things. Can you honestly let it continue because it hasn't gotten too bad yet? He's driven one person out of this region before. Does he have to do it again before we finally put our foot down?
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Chanku on January 25, 2018, 07:40:47 AM
   I feel like I should, at least, give something a bit more to this effort, to try and fully encapsulate my thoughts on this matter. I will be honest when I say I'm not sure if this is more for Govindia, for posterity, or for myself, however I do feel it is most appropriate to say something a bit more long-form. So here it goes.

   "Your relationship with Wintreath and the people within it has become toxic, and it is damaging everyone who is at least peripherally connected to you," this quote is from Point Breeze during the last revocation, and I believe this best describes our situation today. Over two years the relationship between Govindia and Wintreath has degraded further that it was during the revocation. The relationship has become toxic enough that even Wintermoot, one of the most patient people I know, has grown tired of Govindia. Wintermoot's post has lead me to realize this. At this point, the relationship is no longer sustainable, and it is my opinion that the relationship is no longer even salvageable. While I must wonder if anything could have been done differently to have not arrived at this point, I don't think that there is. However I must admit, that as much as I dislike Govindia, as much as I would rather not have him around, my support for a Persona Non Grata declaration is there, but is also with a tinge of regret and sadness. Two years ago, when the Storting revoked his citizenship, many of those in the process hoped that Govindia would change and could return, and I was among them. While I will admit, my hope was layered with skepticism and that I believed that it would come to this, I did have hope that Govindia would change. I will admit that I am, to an extent, disappointed and regretful that it has. I am disappointed at the fact that the hopes of Wintreans in the past were squandered and that the region must, once more, deal with the question of Govindia's status within the community. I am regretful that it seems we must now take the ultimate act and the most extreme censure Wintreath as a community can levy against someone, and that it seems that we must now declare Govindia Persona Non Grata. Honestly with the way things are going, it seems like most people do not have much to say on this. Whether they are indifferent, or just plain tired of this.

   I implore everyone, regardless of your stance on this, regardless of the outcome, to use this time as a reflection. We are now about to levy our harshest and most extreme form of punishment on someone, and we have allowed a relationship to become overly toxic and become unsalvageable. I do believe it is our duty to reflect, as a community, and work to try and make sure this doesn't happen again. So that, future generations of Wintrean can avoid the pain that goes with revocation, and perhaps a declaration not dissimilar to this one. Regardless of the outcome, the community should use the past several years as experience in order to move forward and it is our responsibility, both Wintreans old and new, to build upon it, and to allow our region to move forward.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: tatte on January 25, 2018, 02:28:39 PM
I'll pass the reminder here as well. The proposal was made two days and 18 hours ago, meaning there's by default two more days and six hours left before the UH has to proceed.

I suggest that even those who feel like everything they would say has already been said still personally contribute their views of the matter.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 25, 2018, 04:14:00 PM
I suggest that the Skrifa update the bill. As it is, were I a Skrifa, I'd vote against it. A good template to follow would be the revocation bill. @Aethelia, @tatte, @Mathyland, @taulover, @Crushita.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Crushita on January 25, 2018, 06:19:18 PM
I suggest that the Skrifa update the bill. As it is, were I a Skrifa, I'd vote against it. A good template to follow would be the revocation bill. @Aethelia, @tatte, @Mathyland, @taulover, @Crushita.

No worries, that bill was mostly just a template to throw things on and get the process going. Its been amended.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Doc on January 27, 2018, 03:17:04 AM
I think that a nice, important bit of circumstantial evidence is that for all of the hullaballoo on the Discord, when the opportunity was presented to defend himself here on the forum, all he did was complain that people dogpiled him and ask people on Discord to represent him because he's somehow incapable of doing so himself.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on January 31, 2018, 07:42:33 PM
Thank you to all members of the Storting, for giving this issue the care it deserved, and finally taking the necessary action. For better or worse, this marks the end of an era.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Gattoartico on January 31, 2018, 10:39:38 PM
Thank you to all members of the Storting, for giving this issue the care it deserved, and finally taking the necessary action. For better or worse, this marks the end of an era.

Laurentus how dare you copy my words!
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Emoticonius on January 31, 2018, 11:35:33 PM
I'm just glad it's finally over.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: NyghtOwl on February 18, 2018, 05:53:51 AM
I feel as though I may be a little out of the loop here. I remember this issue somewhat vaguely but never paid it much attention. If I may ask, how do we keep one labeled PNG out of wintreath? This is the internet, can't he just come back, unbeknownst to the rest of us, with a different screen name?
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Laurentus on February 18, 2018, 06:00:17 AM
I suppose we could block his IP, but I have next to no knowledge of such things.
Title: Declare Gov PNG
Post by: Michi on February 18, 2018, 10:11:38 PM
In many messageboards I believe including this one, Administrators have the option of different types of bans: Temporary, Username, and IP.

While anyone can get around a username ban (for like...a minute before they're discovered), there's less ways around an IP ban.  Whether it being having to resort to IP shufflers or just using a different computer elsewhere, it's a more thorough type of ban for anyone that thinks they can just create a new account.