I mean I only have my own anecdotal experience to rely on, but for me applying for citizenship was a big scary thing :o I wasn't entirely sure what I was doing or if I was doing it right... I was very hesitant to get involved with things and wasn't really sure what I was doing :))At least I wasn't the only one who felt this. :P
I'm against post requirements, but I think we could instead focus more in encouraging new members along the lines Pengu illustrated. We could compose a regularly updated welcoming message that gets posted in each and every citizenship application (getting told "go read these lists" is as bad as "do these things if you want in").
What comes to Wintermoot's burden, to ease that I'd instead suggest looking into the possibility of having one or two other people with the access to change the groups (are they called masks?), or at very least we could look into delegating the checking process completely or partially to somewhere else.
In an extension of my thoughts I have posted this proposal (http://wintreath.com/forums/index.php?topic=3521.new#new).
Welcome to the Wintreath forums, Tredania!
As Monarch of our region, I'm happy that you have decided to make an account with us! You've taken the first step to getting to know our region and the people in it better. From here, there are two options for you.
Apply For Citizenship - If you're here as a resident of the region, you can apply for Citizenship! This will give you all the rights and protections of the Fundamental Laws, our regional Constitution, such as the ability to take government office, to vote in elections, and to take part in Citizen-only discussions.
Apply For Ambassadorship - If you're here to represent another region, you can apply as an Ambassador and/or request embassies between Wintreath and your region. This essentially means that our regions will have relations, and occasionally share news and updates with each other.
You can apply for either status here. Just find the right form, fill it out, and submit your form as a new topic. Once you submit it, it may take some time for us to review your application. While you wait, feel free to join any discussion in the Howling Wind Tavern, General Discussion, or Valley of the Spammage forums, all of which are open to non-Citizens!
I hope you enjoy our region and our community. Please message me back if you need any help getting started here on the forums.
Warm Regards,
-Inric Nordrim Stark (Wintermoot of Wintreath)
-Monarch of Wintreath
It's the 4 least intimidating threads that don't require any specific requirements, and likewise are very relaxed as far as posting lengths, since the first is up to them on how long it is, the 2nd is literally just saying they want to be adopted, the 3rd is literally just saying what they want, and the 4th is literally just telling people to ask questions.
With the current trend for people hosting forum games and stuff, it's never been easier to get involved. It's not like we're asking people to reach 500 posts or something. 5 posts just makes Wintermoot's job so much easier, and all the gruntwork that goes into reviewing citizenship applications, and then later having to revoke their citizenships, could finally be cut out and the energy expended in that thankless task could be put to much more efficient use elsewhere.
I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point. :P
I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point. :P
Can I just say... that was a fantastic pun :))
And yeah, I know that it's all up to Wintermoot, everything is really, but I think he listens to us all, so it's important to keep his options open, and that's why I was trying to be broad, suggesting that they didn't necessarily have to have the powers, we could cut out half the work with what's basically an assistant role(s) who would keep track of things for him. :)
Moot will like what Moot likes; but I think if we don't make loads of suggestions then he might not be able to find the avenue which bests suits him.
(PS: The whole tone of this makes it seems like Wintermoot is god and we are all praying to him :P :)) )
I'm glad you understand :P
In all honesty, I think you are overestimating the effect a post requirement has on citizenship. I'm also concerned about giving masking powers to other people. How will we decide who gets it? A potential recipe for disaster.
I agree that having multiple able to do the masking would be the most efficient, but if that's not something Moot wants, then it's a bit of a moot point. :P
It's the 4 least intimidating threads that don't require any specific requirements, and likewise are very relaxed as far as posting lengths, since the first is up to them on how long it is, the 2nd is literally just saying they want to be adopted, the 3rd is literally just saying what they want, and the 4th is literally just telling people to ask questions.
I wasn't saying 5 was a difficult goal to reach; I was saying that when I joined I was very nervous about posting and the idea that every post I made was being watched with the critical eye of the government might have put me off...
Another thought comes to mind...are we over-emphasizing Citizenship and all the benefits of becoming one over joining the forums and the community? Would it be better if we focused more on getting people to join and take part in conversations before bringing up becoming a Citizen?
So @Weissreich, how would you handle promotion of the forums on the region page? Remove the Citizenship stuff and just promote what we're doing on the forums?It's a tough one when you think about it, primarily because of the differences between the RMB-style posting and forum-style posting. One is pretty much point, shoot and wait whilst the other requires navigating to the correct boards, replying in the right topics, remembering to check back on the site etc...
I'm not what one would call a chatty player. I say hi to those I know and that's that. I came to Wintreath a couple of years ago when Moot first built the region and I've stood solidly for Wintreath ever since. I don't think it's fair to judge my dedication to the region based on the fact that I don't like to chat or post on an offsite forum. Anyone who knows me knows I'm only a telegram away. :)
The Citizenship Integration Amendment Act
Title
1) This Act shall be cited as the Citizenship Integration Amendment Act.
2) The following shall be inserted into Section 2 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act, with subsequent subsections being renumbered accordingly:Quote2.1 Prospective Citizens shall have made at least five posts on the regional forum prior to approval of their application for Citizenship.
I'd probably support something like this if a push is made to give people things to discuss too. Not everyone requests a mentor, so a mandatory Q&A thread for prospective citizens (AMA, basically) would be nice.Are you saying that you don't believe there are enough discussions for prospective Citizens to take part in, or that they should be given direction on what specifically they should post?
I have to somewhat agree with tatte here. I also have a few concerns over the law, on the basis of it potentially violating the administrative section of the Fundamental Laws. Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.That is something I would consider to be a legal but inappropriate use of executive power. The Fundamental Laws is very clear that the Storting sets Citizenship policy...while the authority may have been delegated to me as well, I know that it was with the unspoken intention of being used in rare, individual cases, such as the one time that it's been used in. It was never intended to allow the Monarchy to circumvent the Storting and set its own Citizenship policy that would be applied to everyone. For that reason, this is not a route that I will be perusing.
Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.
Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law.At what point does a monarch "directing" outside of the law stay outside of the law, and how long does it stay that way before it effectively becomes law?
Wintermoot Section 2.5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act gives you this authority.I have already answered the first portion of your post, and won't be dignifying the second portion with a response.
Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law, because honestly I think you just want to be able to say you can't do anything about it. For once in your life take a stand with pride, I don't understand how you can stand to the side!
Wasn't that technically giving it a response? :P (Also I believe @Reon might have something to say about the last part :P )Wintermoot Section 2.5 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act gives you this authority.I have already answered the first portion of your post, and won't be dignifying the second portion with a response.
Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law, because honestly I think you just want to be able to say you can't do anything about it. For once in your life take a stand with pride, I don't understand how you can stand to the side!
So long as it can be reversed as soon as it's realized this is a bad policy very quickly, I don't really care. If Wintermoot believes it's better to forgo our accepting nature and become more exclusive than it's his prerogative to do so.Further this doesn't have to be Law. Wintermoot can simply direct all people with the authority to accept citizenship applications to not accept applications until they have reached the limit and also request that all people make that requirement in order to be considered.Honestly I would rather you use this authority than just passing it into law.At what point does a monarch "directing" outside of the law stay outside of the law, and how long does it stay that way before it effectively becomes law?
15. The Storting shall have the authority to interpret these Fundamental Laws and statutory laws and consider the constitutionality over laws brought before the Storting, determine rulings and verdicts in regard to violations of these laws, and determine punishments for violations of these laws within the parameters of these Fundamental Laws and any other laws.
2.5 The Monarch, or any subordinate official appointed by the Monarch, shall have the authority to grant or deny citizenship to any person who applies.
I am nevertheless hurt, tatte, that you had not brought up the issue with me directly if you had a concern about my actions.When you put it like that I feel bad, I suppose there's not much I can say to correct anything (sorry? Sorry.), this is how this ended up going down and I'll keep a wider mind to impacts of my acts in the future. You're a great speaker, it's the passing of that law that bothered me and lead to that petty remark.
What I had meant is not bringing up the act itself to meI have no idea what this refers to, it's awful because it forces me to post another reply.
=Something as simple as a "post to introduce yourself" thread which explicitly counts towards your post count could make all the difference.Hmm, that's a good point. I just noticed that there isn't even explicitly an introductions subforum anymore (intros are in Gatekeep's Post, but aren't in its description); I'm guessing it got overlooked when AMAs got moved back into a separate subforum?
Title
1. This bill shall be titled the Citizenship Post Requirement Repeal Act.
Amendments
2. Section 2.1 of the Citizenship and Demonym Act shall be stricken null and void with all subsequent sections being renumbered accordingly.
2.1 As such, the Citizenship Integration Amendment Act shall, itself, be considered repealed.
@Mathyland could we get these commas checked? :PHey! You took my job! :P
(I'd recommend "As such, the Citizenship Integration Amendment Act shall itself be considered repealed." Capitalization is altered to be consistent with Section 1 of the Citizenship Integration Amendment Act.)
To be fair I consider the word itself in that sentence to be separate from the rest of the sentence, somewhat like an interjection...it's kinda hard to describe how I viewed it, however it may very well be grammatically incorrect.It's just how I would write it. Having the commas there probably is grammatically correct, if not better.
To be fair I consider the word itself in that sentence to be separate from the rest of the sentence, somewhat like an interjection...it's kinda hard to describe how I viewed it, however it may very well be grammatically incorrect.I think the word you're looking for is appositive (http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/appositive.htm), but I don't think that counts as an appositive.
"be stricken" should be "be struck".According to this, (https://simple.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/strike) it should be "be stricken"
I'm not sure if a full repeal is in order though.
When you strike a part from a document, it is stricken from the document.(Italics added by me)
Ah, the intricacies of irregular conjugations."be stricken" should be "be struck".According to this, (https://simple.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/strike) it should be "be stricken"
I'm not sure if a full repeal is in order though.QuoteWhen you strike a part from a document, it is stricken from the document.(Italics added by me)
"be stricken" should be "be struck".Stricken is nonstandard but still grammatically correct, particularly in legal usage.
You could probably go with the broader term, a parenthetical phrase.To be fair I consider the word itself in that sentence to be separate from the rest of the sentence, somewhat like an interjection...it's kinda hard to describe how I viewed it, however it may very well be grammatically incorrect.I think the word you're looking for is appositive (http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/appositive.htm), but I don't think that counts as an appositive.
There used to be an introduction section at the end of the Citizenship app...would it be better to have the intro in the app?I liked having a welcome thread for each person that is separate from the apps so that others can ask questions without the person making an AMA thread or welcome the new person. I like the questions and welcomes to be in a separate place from the place where the citizenship app is accepted.
I also think that adding an "introduce yourself" subforum is a good ideaOr rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.
As an addendum to that, I might suggest that in order to really make someone feel like they're wanted in the community (as opposed to just sort of passively being like 'oh okay you're new here') that, rather than have them create an AMA or something like that, that someone else (ordinarily I'd suggest the Jarl of Integration but he seems to have dropped off the face of the planet) create a welcome thread for them (once they'd been granted citizenship, natch). There it's kind of a place where we introduce ourselves to them, so it's not a 'hi I'm the new guy' kind of deal, it's more of a 'hey, we're glad you're joining us!'Those are some good ideas...unfortunately as you mentioned we have some issues with some of the ministries, but they're good ideas that ought to be enacted. I'm curious...in these topics that someone would create to welcome people to the community, would they say just about the same thing or try to customize it? I'm asking because I imagine it would be hard to come up with more than a few variations of a welcome post, but on the other hand we could try our hand at automating it when someone is made a Citizen.
That to me seems like a much more successful means of integrating new people into the community, as opposed to just passively letting them insert themselves in a way that they might feel is a bit intrusive.
I might also suggest automatically assigning a mentor, and then letting the person say 'oh, no, that's not really necessary' if they don't want one. Of course, that would require people who'd be down to mentor.
Or rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.I don't believe there was ever a dedicated subforum for introductions...at one time the AMA forum functioned for both, though.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Pretty sure it was first AMA+intros, then apps+intros, but now, Gatekeep's Post doesn't even mention introductions.Or rather, restoring, since IIRC that used to be a thing.I don't believe there was ever a dedicated subforum for introductions...at one time the AMA forum functioned for both, though.
Those are some good ideas...unfortunately as you mentioned we have some issues with some of the ministries, but they're good ideas that ought to be enacted. I'm curious...in these topics that someone would create to welcome people to the community, would they say just about the same thing or try to customize it? I'm asking because I imagine it would be hard to come up with more than a few variations of a welcome post, but on the other hand we could try our hand at automating it when someone is made a Citizen.I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .
On the other hand, by that point they've already had to post a Citizenship app...wouldn't they have already introduced themselves in a way by then?
I think the issue with your second series of graphs is that you're comparing total Citizens against telegrams sent, when the number of Citizens is determined by other things as well such as nations CTEing, the number of checks done that month (Citizenship checks have happened more often recently), and after November 2016 whether they had made at least five post that month or the previous month. Total Citizen numbers in the checks also include Paragons, who in many cases haven't been involved in the region in years. Since so much more goes into it, you wouldn't expect a strong correlation between recruitment for a particular month and the cumulative number of Citizens up to that point.However that doesn't explain the things I came across in my edit, meaning the rather weak correlation between Nation Numbers and Telegrams sent, which I expected to at least have a correlation coeffecient of 0.30, meaning it would be, weakly correlated. Also Wintermoot I never said I expected a strong correlation between Citizenship Numbers and Telegram amounts, however I will admit I expected a stronger correlation beyond what is shown, in fact I expected it to get around 0.15, but I didn't.
I think a better comparison is telegrams sent vs Citizenship apps...even there it's not perfect, but you would expect a stronger correlation since most (but not all, which is why it isn't perfect) members apply soon after being recruited to the region by a telegram.
I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .Do you think it'd be the same as if everyone introduced themselves in their Citizenship topic? I suppose we don't really talk much about ourselves to new members...just welcome them and approve their app. =/
To be honest, it could very well just be one topic where whenever somebody gets citizenship, they get a shoutout and people pile on and welcome them - or it could just be a sort of tacit encouragement for, at the very least, the Underhusen, Ministers, etc. to jump in on someone's citizenship app and say 'hey what up'. It's just that I think the goal should be to take away the feeling that the new person is doing the online equivalent of walking up to a group of people he doesn't know at a party, and instead make it feel more like they're being actively encouraged to join this group by the people in it.
And sure, they've already introduced themselves, but 1) that's a great tool to personalize people's welcome messages with, since they'll have said things about themselves (and everyone loves talking about themselves,with the clear exception of me, seeing as I'm the most humble person in the world), and 2) in online communities there's always this feeling of everyone kind of knowing you (because you've introduced yourself) but you not knowing them (unless you take the time to go dig up their citizenship app), and that kind of blunts conversations because suddenly the easiest topic in the world (again, talking about themselves) is sort of talked out already.
Perhaps we should add back the old Section II of the application that asked new members to introduce themselves.I mean, if you thought that would be effective, sure, it could very well simply be a sort of forum equivalent to the welcome TG that everybody who moves into the region gets - but if anyone .Do you think it'd be the same as if everyone introduced themselves in their Citizenship topic? I suppose we don't really talk much about ourselves to new members...just welcome them and approve their app. =/
To be honest, it could very well just be one topic where whenever somebody gets citizenship, they get a shoutout and people pile on and welcome them - or it could just be a sort of tacit encouragement for, at the very least, the Underhusen, Ministers, etc. to jump in on someone's citizenship app and say 'hey what up'. It's just that I think the goal should be to take away the feeling that the new person is doing the online equivalent of walking up to a group of people he doesn't know at a party, and instead make it feel more like they're being actively encouraged to join this group by the people in it.
And sure, they've already introduced themselves, but 1) that's a great tool to personalize people's welcome messages with, since they'll have said things about themselves (and everyone loves talking about themselves,with the clear exception of me, seeing as I'm the most humble person in the world), and 2) in online communities there's always this feeling of everyone kind of knowing you (because you've introduced yourself) but you not knowing them (unless you take the time to go dig up their citizenship app), and that kind of blunts conversations because suddenly the easiest topic in the world (again, talking about themselves) is sort of talked out already.
This and your recruitment recommendation seem like good ideas...but otoh it might disqualify people from running to the extent that there might not be enough to actually fill the Underhusen.
I suppose there would be the benefit of only ever electing people who 'give a shit', or at least are willing enough to fake that they do that it's functionally indistinguishable, but that seems kinda fringe...
Also since I can't comment on the recruitment thing, I'm just gonna do it here: that seems like it would disenfranchise (I mean, to the extent that they can't run for political office) people who don't maintain NS nations.
On the subject of this requirement, it seems like the kind of thing that could lead to...idk, patronage, of a sort? A sort of mentor-mentee deal seems like it would build enough of a relationship that it seems like that vote might be perennially locked in, and so give the advantage to people who had mentored longer (and consequently more).
To be fair we don't have to require it for elected officials then, it could just be a Riksrad thing with the Storting recommending it for those running.I think we have trouble enough as it is to get people to join and stay active in the Riksrad to put any more requirements on them -- though I would very much be in favor of these if it were a viable option.